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Post by lordreyne on May 1, 2019 12:32:34 GMT
Hey! I'm quiet new to the Forum so I dont know if this is the place to post this. So I am absolutely obssesed with this mod, I actually bought CK2 only so I can play this mod and tons of friends of mine are planing to do the same, honestly CK2 should start giving you guys money you absolutely hook people for the game with your Mod. As I said, I love playing Ck2 with the AGOT Mod, actually I only play it with the mod, but something that always bugged me a little bit is that when you start with Aegon's Conquest ancient minor Families like the Crakehalls and Darklyns only got about 60 Prestige. Second that Families like the Lannisters, Gardeners Durrandons etc. who do have quiet some prestige, do have a quiet boring Family Tree where it always goes from father to son etc. I am not juding anybody, the mod is massive and doing Family Trees is probably the last thing you thought about. The Thing is that I love ancient Family Trees, in the real world and in Game of Thrones. So I set myself to the task of filling those gaps and making more spread out Family Trees and adding Titles to Family Members that sin my opinion should be there (That all of Garth's Children were independend Kings for example).
I actually did something like that for Medieval II Total War but then I deleted it again for reasons. but now I started again with the Family Trees and thought I share it on here.
I might make it into a Sub-Mod or I just edit my files. The way I did it is actually quiet simple, I use numerous kinds of probability Programs to dtermine how many children a character has, how old he gets, the death, reason, in which rank and House he/she marries in etc. For the marriage thing for ecample I use the "4653" methode. Meaning that for example, when you are a Member of a Great House, let's say House Redwyne under the Gardener Kings, you have a 4x chance that you marry into the royal family, a 6x chance that you marry into a family of the same rank (Hightower, Peake, Footly etc), 5x a chance that you marry a rank bellow you, meaning a Lordly House for this example (Stackhouse, Beesbury, Ashford etc.) and a 3x chance that you marry into a family 2 ranks underneath you, meaning Landed Knights in this example (Redding, Tyrell etc.).
With Child birth it is a bit different, there I use the methode of probabilty, where it comes down to age, which is linked to fertility. it starts with 16, and ends with 45, it starts modest has it's peake at the age 26-30 and then declines again. I used all these algorythms to create what I have so far and I am far from done (I am currently pulling every Family to a stable point in 9800 B.C) but I thought I share what I have done so far on here, since I do spend a lot of my free time on it.
As I under stood it, I can just post this link here and you should see if I change something. I would if you point out things that if have done wrong or think that are not logical when it commes to lore. (Remember though that 99% of these character s are invented since we do have so little information about the Family Dynasties befpre the Conquest) So here is the LINK to it and I hope you enjoy, exploring the ancient Families of Westeros LINKs: The Family Trees
I dont know if you can edit other people than the one I linked, if you do pls don't. PS: I am not a native speaker and I have legastenie so pls excuse any typos or grammar erros It tends to get super laggy when you are in the upper parts of the Tree so just set the Others Option to none and the bottom of the page
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Post by lordreyne on May 1, 2019 15:06:57 GMT
UPDATE 1.1 05/01/2019 The Following Houses have been finished until 9800 B.C: - House Blackwood of the Wolfswood
- House Bole of King's Grove
- House Bolton of the Dreadfort
- House Poole of Coldstrem
- House Mollen of Dawnforrest
- House of Overton
- House Wells of Ethering
- House Whitehill of Highpoint
- House of Hornwood
- House Ashwood of the Sheepshead Hills
- House Holt of Widow's Watch
- House Woolfield of Ramsgate
- House Locke of Oldcastle
- House Dustin of Barrowton
- House of Brownbarrow
- House Stout o Goldgrass
- House Fisher of the Stoney Shore
- House Slate of Blackpool
- House Ryder of the Rills
- House Glenmore of Rillwater Crossing
- House Ironsmith of Withered Heath
- House Forrester of Ironrath
- House Glover of Deepwood Motte
- House Magnar of Kingshouse
- House Reed of Greywater Watch
- House of Cray
- House Blackmyre of Greycrann
- House Marsh of Churwell
- House Umber of the Last Hearth
~ Lord Reyne
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Post by lordkurama on May 1, 2019 18:14:46 GMT
Oooh interesting
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Post by frosty on May 2, 2019 23:49:08 GMT
Man this is super well done! I have also thought about how sparse the family trees are for many houses in this mod, especially with how long they have purportedly existed. Keep up the good work!
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Post by lordreyne on May 26, 2019 9:03:10 GMT
UPDATE 1.2 05/26/2019 The Following Houses have been finished until 9800 B.C:
- House Darklyn of Duskendale
- House Buckler of Antlers
- House of Byrch Hall
- House Harte of Brindlewood
- House of Hollard Hall
- House of Rosby
- House Fisher of Misty Isle
- House of Darry
- House Cox of Saltpans
- House of Hawick
- House Mooton of Maidenpool
- House Bracken of Stone Hedge
- House of Goodbrook
~ Lord Reyne
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Post by lordreyne on Jun 2, 2019 11:24:53 GMT
UPDATE 1.2.1 06/02/2019 The Following Houses have been finished until 9800 B.C: - House of Butterwell
- House Wode of Shoreham
- House Blanetree of Highheart
~ Lord Reyne
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Post by lordreyne on Jun 3, 2019 19:32:30 GMT
UPDATE 1.2.2 06/03/2019 The Following Houses have been finished until 9800 B.C: ~ Lord Reyne
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Post by lordreyne on Jun 10, 2019 11:19:32 GMT
UPDATE 1.3 06/10/2019 The Following Houses have been finished until 9800 B.C:
- House Durrandon of Storm's End
- House of Wendwater
House Wendwater was a damm pain to do All was fine until Otho II. Wendwater (whom I descided shall be called "the idiotic") died without having anymale offspring. The Throne then went to his fourth Cousin once removed, I belive you call it, Wendel III. Wendwater.
On that note I'd like to adress that in my Family-Tree, Women arent allowed to inherit titles until after the Andal Invasion. As I was doing a deep dig through the lore, I saw that none of the more First Men dominated Kingdoms ever had a Female Ruker. GRRM explicitly said that there was never a Queen of Winter in her own right, And when they do only have Daughters in case of Brandon the Daughterless, the Throne went to his grandsson instead of his Daughter who was alive and well. Even in more recent times you can see that Girls and Women were often skiped over in the Stark succession in favor of brothers and uncles, and that was when they had long been under Andal influence and under Targaryen Rule. This was the Case of Cregan Stark. Cregan Stark had Three Wives, Arra Norrey, Alysane Blackwood and Lynarra Stark. His First Wife Arra Norrey gave him a Son named Rickon but died delivering him. His second Wife Alysanne Blackwood gave him four Daughters, who would ofcourse all come after Rickon. When she died Crgan remarried again and his Cousin Lynarra gave him five children: Jonnel, Edric, Lyanna, Barthogan and Brandon. His eldest Son Rickon married Lady Jeyne Manderly and had two Daughters with her Serena and Sansa. But When Rickon died Serena and Sansa where passed over by Cregan in favor of his Second Son Jonel, eventhough by Agnatic, Cognatic Primogeniture, the Heir Title would go to the eldest Child, in this case of his eldest Son, no matter if they area gril or not. Jonel and his brother Edric would marry their half-nieces probably to solidify their claim on Winterfell as their mother Jeyne Manderly, who's Family if of Andal descend, sure as hell spoke out to Cregan that the Lordship should pass on to the eldest Daughter of his eldest Son as her Tradition would demand it. Cregan, not wanting to anger his most powerful Banermen (I highly suspect that Jeyne was the Daughter of a Lord Manderly of White Harbor as she married the Heir to the North), the probably arranged the marriage of his sons to their half-nieces. It could also be that Cregan intened for his Granddaughter to succeed him bit after his death his second son usurped the Throne and forced his half-nieces to marry him and his brothers, but even then, the Northern Lords accepted and went on with it. In that same Time there was a similar problem in the South where Lord Tybolt Lannister only a had one Daughter, named Cerelle with his Wife Lady Teora Kyndal but after his death his Daughter succeeded him, so we can't say that this would have been how most of Westeros would have acted, there is also the thing with Cersei that she takes the Throne of Casterly Rock after Tywin eventhough he has brothers nephews, and Cousins in plenty.
I dont need to talk about the Ironborn do Imao. But when you look at Andal Nobility there were more cases where Women actually ruled or where in Line to Rule. King Gerold III. Lannister, though beeing First Man, only had one Daughter and after his passing a Council Crowned her Husband The Andal Knight Joffrey Lydden as King, who ruled the Rock with the Lannister name. At first glance this might seem no different how it also and probably on multiple occasions, went down in the other Kingdoms but on a Closer look you might see here that in Andal view Women are actually also fit to rule, but after sons. If you look at the Lore of House Lannister it is said, on multiple occasions that the Lannisters are a very large and wealthy family, when Lann "the Clever" took the Rock from the Casterly he is said to have had a 100 sons and a 100 Daughters. This must of course be a medaphor that even from an early time on the Lannisters where considered a large Family. After Generations, When the Lannisters were still only Lords of Casterly Rock (before Loreon I. Lannister "the Lion"), there where so many Lannisters that they could no longer live in the Rock. So the Lower Branches took off and established themselves in Lannisport, where they also established theree new Cadet Dynasties. On top of that, it is said in AWOIAF that Lannisport was the second biggest City in Westeros when the Andals arrived, so Lannisport and probably the Lannisters within it, also grew to a sizeable number. So we already established that the First Men probably used Agnatic Primogeniture and with so many Cousins within and outside the Rock it probably wouldn't have been hard to find a male relative who could have taken the Crown of the Rock, hell, I even belive that Gerold III. Lannister had, if not Brothers and Newphews but Cousins, Cousin's sons and second cousins for sure. So what did change and why didn't one of the male Lannisters get the Throne. Of course there is the factor that the Andals probably wanted to expand their grip on the West but they already had a high influence in Casterly Rock's Court. Even when you see it in the other Kingdoms you can see that this probably wasn't a purely oppurtunistic thing. I belive that when Gerold III. Lannister died A Council was called in by the Andal Lords of the West, since they had heard that a male relative of Gerold III. Lannister was to be crowned King of the Rock, which would put them in a weakend or maybe dangerous situation. When the Council was called the Andals probably put forth the Idea that Gerolld's Daughter be crowned as Queen but the Frist Men Lords refused that a Women would sit on the Lion Throne so they probably compromised that Gerold III's Daughter's Husband would sit on the Throne whoch is basically a small win for the First Men and a big one for the Andals. A Smal win for the First Men since they weren't ruled by a Woman and a big win for the Andals since they had brought their champion Ser Joffrey even closer to the Throne than they originally intended, and now as the ruling King he could even more advocate for Andal Culture in the West and another win since they had brought their more egalitarian Tradition of Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture on the table and even put it through in a way though not entirely but that is more of a win for the Andals since a ruling King as more power than a King Consort, though either way the Andals won. In the Other Kingdoms you can see it plain layed out. In the Reach Andal Invasion Chapter of AWOIAF it is explicitly stated that the Reach was ruled at least by one Queen and Argilac's Heir was his Daughter Argella eventhough the probably had legitimized Bastard Branches in Houses Bolling and Wensington.
With all this evidence and my own theory I desiced that at least in my Family Tree, the First Men used Agnatic- Primogeniture and the Andals Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture and then the Rhoynish would ofcourse use Cognatic.
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Post by caeserion on Jun 10, 2019 15:43:24 GMT
This is a ridiculous amount of effort mate, amazing.
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Post by japster on Jun 10, 2019 18:13:31 GMT
While there have been no Queens of Winter, I can think of two recent examples of women ruling in the North, uncontested by men. First is Maege Mormont, who took over from her nephew after he was disgraced, and it is accepted that she will be succeeded by one of her daughters, but it is unclear whether this is a situation unique to House Mormont. The other is Barbrey Dustin, who rules the Barrlowlands in her own right. Not only is she a woman, but she is a Ryswell by birth, and has no blood claim to the seat, and was confirmed as the ruling Lady after her husband died without issue. There are Dustin uncles mentioned in the book, who presumably had children who were cousins to the deceased Lord Willam (I believe the mod invents and extended family tree, I can't quite recall), yet they were passed over in favour of his widow. This is definitely a rather unusual case, but it shows first men do not completely have a problem with women rulers, though how much of this is Andal influence is unclear.
Beyond that, I've always wanted to do something like this, but I never quite had the time or patience, so keep up the good work!
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Post by lordreyne on Jun 10, 2019 18:59:04 GMT
While there have been no Queens of Winter, I can think of two recent examples of women ruling in the North, uncontested by men. First is Maege Mormont, who took over from her nephew after he was disgraced, and it is accepted that she will be succeeded by one of her daughters, but it is unclear whether this is a situation unique to House Mormont. The other is Barbrey Dustin, who rules the Barrlowlands in her own right. Not only is she a woman, but she is a Ryswell by birth, and has no blood claim to the seat, and was confirmed as the ruling Lady after her husband died without issue. There are Dustin uncles mentioned in the book, who presumably had children who were cousins to the deceased Lord Willam (I believe the mod invents and extended family tree, I can't quite recall), yet they were passed over in favour of his widow. This is definitely a rather unusual case, but it shows first men do not completely have a problem with women rulers, though how much of this is Andal influence is unclear. Beyond that, I've always wanted to do something like this, but I never quite had the time or patience, so keep up the good work! I actually forgot Bear Island for this claim and it is very true, though I do belive that Bear Island is a example of it's own, a special example which also explains the wildling egalitarianism. The Bear Island Women had to defend thenselves when the Men were gone and apperently did a great job doing so since the Island is still populated after thousands of Years so the Men of Bear Islands didn't really see them as unfit to rule since they had no reason to. I do belive that in the Old first men's view, ability to rule was equal to fighting skill and strengty and if you have a culture were women fight too you have no reason to belive that a Woman is unfit to rule. But if you are a First Men Gardener Princess in the Reach and have more Guards than Great Wyk has inhabitants you dont really get to show your ability to rule. Dont get me wrong I do belive that First Men valued women as councilors on political or economic matters but I do belive that they thought siting on that throne, you have to represent strength and a Woman in a dress doesnt represent strength in a culture that is so wartior based. On the other Hand I do belive that Andals with their sceming nature recognized that the right to rule wasn't pure strength in battle or command talent. They recognized that you can easily get to power by being political advantegeous and making the right choices and the right time, (the Corbrays took the Fingers from two First Men Kings without a single battle) and that is not Gender restricted. I also belive that Andal influence in the North is the result of a more egalitarian view that First Men in the current timeline have and my own theory is that the Manderlys, the Gardener Kings and the High Septon played a huge role in it. The supposed flight from Gardener rule that the Manderlys propose always seemed Fishy to me. You dont get ousted from the Kingdom and they allow you to take all your welath with it so you can build the only city in the north. My theory is that Gardener King struck a bargin with the High Septon to get more intependence from the Stary Sept if he'd help him spread the faith to the unreachable lands of the north where the "false gods" still held sway. So the plan was to paint the Manderlys as the victims and "oust" them from the Reach, using the feud between Houses Manderly and Peake a bad guy who could take the blame. The Manderlys grew steadly more and more powerful in the Reach and getting them away was defenetly in the Gardeners intrest, in both getting a too powerful vassal away and getting a new trade partner from far away. So the plan was to basically send the Manderlys north with a shitton of Gold and silver, probably funded by the High Septon, to ask the sometimes-honorable Starks for refuge, the Starks would of course accept and with their Churchmoney they were able to build the only city in the North, raising them to a highly influencal point. Their Andal ancestry also brought more southern goods, tradition, culture and religion to the North and spread it amongs the common folk of the Southern North. As the Manderlys grew in power within the North, funded by the Stary Sept, the Gardener Kings and other Southern allies, they probably started making demands and pushed the Winter Kings and what does a good King do to prevent any uprising, as due to their influence the Manderlys, if not converted, had other powerful northern allies, exactly you marry them and that was the ultimate death shot. I'd like to think of the first Manderly Queen of Winter like Ellyn Reyne. Being the Daughter of a powerful Lord the probably had a lot of friends and influence at Winterfell's court arraing for her relatives and families allies to get high positions, maybe even raising their Children in a more andalized way. So or so, the northman we see in the show have gone a long way from poligamy and hanging their foes intrails in weirdwold trees and taking women as prizes and I do belive the Manderlys played a huge role in that. (PS: I do belive that Barbrey is simply apüointed as the Lady of Barrowton and a Cousin of her Husband will ger Barrowton after her death, yoz cant just strip a family of their ancestral home that they had held for thousands of Years, especially whem their Lord and head of House doed on a mission you let him into)
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Post by lordumber93 on Jun 10, 2019 20:30:00 GMT
Bear island went to a female because no son's or males existed outside of Jorah, whom went into exile. It stays in the family, but, females only rule until a male heir is present (The Young she bears son). Barrowton was more political, if all male Dustins didn't die in the Riverlands. You'd be upsetting the Ryswell's and Bolton's by taking those lands from Barbrey. She's the de facto ruler until death, then the Dustins, if still alive, will get it back.
First men won't follow a female, in most cases. They'll follow a name, regardless of gender, but will always pick a male first and foremost. The Daughterless and his bastard grandson prove this.
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Rakdar
New Member
Shadow Will Fall
Posts: 8
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Post by Rakdar on Jun 11, 2019 7:51:49 GMT
Lyessa Flint is the reigning Lady of Widow’s Watch by the time of the books. For First Men and Old Gods worshipers south of the Neck, we have Agnes Blackwood.
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Post by hapchazzard on Jun 11, 2019 14:57:29 GMT
Fascinating! A question, though - why start at 10,000 B.C? If you're planning on possibly making this into a submod, wouldn't 8,000 B.C. be a more appropriate starting date, as that is counted as 'year one' for the purposes of the mod? Also, something like this could probably also be used to make a list of LCs of the Night's Watch, would that also be something you'd try to tackle? And do you have any plans on how to tackle Iron Isles succession/Kingsmoots?
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Post by lordreyne on Jun 12, 2019 17:23:36 GMT
Fascinating! A question, though - why start at 10,000 B.C? If you're planning on possibly making this into a submod, wouldn't 8,000 B.C. be a more appropriate starting date, as that is counted as 'year one' for the purposes of the mod? Also, something like this could probably also be used to make a list of LCs of the Night's Watch, would that also be something you'd try to tackle? And do you have any plans on how to tackle Iron Isles succession/Kingsmoots? I started at 10'000 BC because that's that date that the Age of Heroes began and alot of the prominent Kingdoms already exited before the Long Night, such as the Gardener and Lannister Kingdom. So I wanted to give them their approprate Family Liniage instead of just cutting it and starting at 8000 B.C. For the Question about the Night's Watch. I use a proability alogrithm for this project which also allows them to die at a very young age, from 6-64 there is a probability of 1/10, at the Age of 66 the probablility rises 1/10 every five Years. Why is this important, because I also didnt just include death reasons when they died but also, the option that they joined the Maester's Guild. So rn when a unmarried or widowed man dies when he is young, (8-25) there is a, I belive 1/16 chance that he didnt actually die but just went to the Citadel and rennounced his claims. After the Long Night in about 7975 B.C the Night's Watch will also be a possibility, and the Faith of the Seven orders a third after the Andals are settled. On the Question if this could be used to make a History of LC's of the NW, I doubt it, just because of the sheer Number of Nobles that actually went to the Watch compared to Commonfolk. But who knows, if I am totaly insane and finished the Nobles of Westeros and Essos and the Summer, Jade and Shivering Sea, I might start making Family Trees just for the Common People so we can place them in all the Town Settlements. For the Kingsmoot question. You have to see, I organite this tree using rounds (You probably saw those random Numbers in their Bio's) Each round encapsles five Years so when a Iron King dies in the previous round I simply round up all the Men who are 16 and above and put them in a probability counter with each more round above 16 you get your name but in one more time, kinda likd the Hunger Games lamo, but it also decreases after each round after the Age of 45. And the Guy who gets picked will win. This system will ensure that mostly young, grown men will get crowned but I also am thrilled to see a 16 Year old Boy get crownes haha. ~ Lord Reyne
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