aconda
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Post by aconda on Mar 2, 2019 3:26:02 GMT
Potentially one of the biggest red herrings yet.... but what if GRRM decided it was true.
Was ViserysII barren?
So alot of research turned into this question, one that perhaps won't be answered for many years. Perhaps it will never be answered and GRRM decides to follow a different route of breadcrumbs that he left behind. Or.... perhaps he will keep it ambigues. So why this question and what does it really mean. ViserysII had a dramatic life experience in early life, became a pretty succesfull administrator in several Targaryen courts before becoming ultimatly king himself.
To fully understand the importance of this situation you'll need to understand part of the research and have access to a detailed genealogy tree of the Targaryens, with one of my favorites being the one from the awoiaf website.
The great and fun Aziz from History of Westeros podcasts, who researches a great deal into ASOIAF and who actually got me into this game. Aziz has found really interesting mnemonics that GRRM seems to use when creating notable characters troughout all of this universe's history and he regularly posts the simularities between the different characters on his twitter feed. The universe building that GRRM does includes 100's of notable characters, with an account of 2103 mentioned characters in the books and to have mnemonics between different characters is just a smart writing style. To the reader, those characters in the canon often are as unrelated as can be, but there is a clever process going on behind the scenes.
Aziz found great simularities between ViserysII and.... Tywin Lannister and the mnemonic use between those characters seems validated. At the time i was doing research about a "what if" scenario about Tywin actually being barren and trying to rationalize different scenario's, including one about Tywin actually being aware that he was barren. Some people might allready understand where that part of the story is going. The situation, about Tywin knowing, seems to me fitting GRRM's overal writing when revealing a cool twist and while the "barren detail" wasn't mentioned in Aziz his comparison's lists, i did want to look into a "what if" scenario when extracting that data on ViserysII. And boy, did it blow my mind.
Just check out the family tree trough that filter. You'll probably see the same thing i did. Have Fun!  |
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Post by rufff1 on Mar 2, 2019 12:03:29 GMT
I'm a little confused - viserys II had three children, he wasn't barren?
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aconda
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Post by aconda on Mar 2, 2019 15:57:57 GMT
What happens on the genealogy tree if those children are not his?
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Post by verkos on Mar 2, 2019 17:04:21 GMT
Would that not make none of the Targaryen characters in the books actually Targaryens as they are descended from Viserys II either by Aegon the Unworthy or Aemon the Dragonknight and Naerys, who would not be Targaryens themselves if they were not born of Viserys II, unless you think they would be Aegon III's children which seems even more unlikely.
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aconda
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Post by aconda on Mar 2, 2019 17:09:29 GMT
Would that not make none of the Targaryen characters in the books actually Targaryens as they are descended from Viserys II either by Aegon the Unworthy or Aemon the Dragonknight and Naerys, who would not be Targaryens themselves if they were not born of Viserys II, unless you think they would be Aegon III's children which seems even more unlikely. Tehee. Well unless targaryen blood was reintroduced in later generations.
But more things are happening.
The Lysene share similiar Valyrian charasteristics with the Targeryans, say the white hair and purple eyes. Though no mention of actual dragonbond genetics. And that question is really important aswell, it's a seperate case though.
What would it mean for ViserysII direct offspring and what would it mean for one generation later.
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Post by verkos on Mar 3, 2019 1:01:39 GMT
But that would mean that Daeron II was not a Targaryen, nor was his wife Mariah Martell, then Maekar would not have any, and since he married a Dayne, who we have had no info as of having a Targaryen marry into the family earlier, it would not be introduced. Then Aegon V married a Blackwood, who have had contact with the Targaryen family before, I don't believe it was with a Targaryen marrying into the Blackwoods, and then Jaehaerys married his sister, and Aerys married his sister, thus not having any chance to reintroduce Targaryen blood for Daenerys. And, I do not believe that there is not any way that Daenerys is not a Targaryen. It does not mae sense for her story for her to be a fake Targaryen.
As for the implication for Aegon, Aemon, and Naerys I think it would actually weaken what Martin has done with the characters. Right now Aegon starts off as the rightful king and was a handsome, strong warrior in his youth who ends up becoming arguably the worst king to ever sit the throne. Especially with his brother Aemon having ample opportunity and most likely very personal motives for removing/killing Aegon and yet he doesn't, because Aegon is the rightful king and Aemon swore his vows to that king. By making them bastards you undermine the tragedy of that whole situation.
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aconda
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Post by aconda on Mar 3, 2019 18:41:31 GMT
Indeed there are obstacles, i find it myself hard to believe Daenerys is not a real Targaryen in name, sharing blooddescent from Aegon the Conqueror. What i found more disturbing actually was how it decreases Bloodraven's position and i'm still unsure what to think of it. Not because of a family name, but rather what it says about his magical abilities. I've always been made to believe Bloodraven became The Last Greenseer because of his strong bloodline to magic, valyrian magic from his father's side and the northern CotF genetics from his mother's Blackwood side. But unless the person who was the actual father had any ancient magical valyrian genetics, Bloodraven's position to become The Last Greenseer was achieved only trough the magical connection from his mother's Blackwood side. Wich is impressive, because there's atleast one other Blackwood who married directly into the Royal Targeryan dynasty. So in this context, the Blackwood's seem to play a really big role when it comes to having a magical bloodline. Untill confirmed or denied, i'd even flag MaekarI's spouse, Lady Dyanna Dayne as a potential for reintroducing ancient valyrian blood back into the Royal family. There's still alot of space to be filled though. Fire and Blood gives incredibly detailed stories with confirmed canon that have potential to reintroduce certain aspects of the topics were exploring. Frankly, Fire and Blood partII will be all about ViserysII, the Rogare's, AegonIV and the Blackfyre's. The "barren detail" might not have been known to ViserysII, or might have been..... or another variant, like learning about it in later life. And the same goes for AegonIV. For him to learn that truth on later life, just has incredible potential for a personality shift. It might even give us alot more emphasis as to why he gave Blackfyre to DaemonI. For..... DaemonI Blackfyre might actually be the only one who shares true Targaryen blood from his mother's side. Who was a true fullblood Targaryen. We'd start looking trough a different set of eyes to how everything in the Blackfyre Rebellion plays out if this kind of knowledge was true, wich might be exciting. All in all, were just speculating and researching a theory. It's not canon. GRRM makes the canon and he has alot of aces still up his sleeve so. I just find this "barren detail" very intriguing as it shakes so much things up but doesn't really neglect or contradict the canon alot to the pieces that are affected. Certain pieces are somewhat weakened, while other aspects get strenghtened. Same goes for extrapolating the "barren detail" on Tywin Lannister, wich i'm a fan of that theory aswell. |
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Post by Elotyr on Aug 2, 2019 9:29:30 GMT
Indeed there are obstacles, i find it myself hard to believe Daenerys is not a real Targaryen in name, sharing blooddescent from Aegon the Conqueror. What i found more disturbing actually was how it decreases Bloodraven's position and i'm still unsure what to think of it. Not because of a family name, but rather what it says about his magical abilities. I've always been made to believe Bloodraven became The Last Greenseer because of his strong bloodline to magic, valyrian magic from his father's side and the northern CotF genetics from his mother's Blackwood side. But unless the person who was the actual father had any ancient magical valyrian genetics, Bloodraven's position to become The Last Greenseer was achieved only trough the magical connection from his mother's Blackwood side. Wich is impressive, because there's atleast one other Blackwood who married directly into the Royal Targeryan dynasty. So in this context, the Blackwood's seem to play a really big role when it comes to having a magical bloodline. Untill confirmed or denied, i'd even flag MaekarI's spouse, Lady Dyanna Dayne as a potential for reintroducing ancient valyrian blood back into the Royal family. There's still alot of space to be filled though. Fire and Blood gives incredibly detailed stories with confirmed canon that have potential to reintroduce certain aspects of the topics were exploring. Frankly, Fire and Blood partII will be all about ViserysII, the Rogare's, AegonIV and the Blackfyre's. The "barren detail" might not have been known to ViserysII, or might have been..... or another variant, like learning about it in later life. And the same goes for AegonIV. For him to learn that truth on later life, just has incredible potential for a personality shift. It might even give us alot more emphasis as to why he gave Blackfyre to DaemonI. For..... DaemonI Blackfyre might actually be the only one who shares true Targaryen blood from his mother's side. Who was a true fullblood Targaryen. We'd start looking trough a different set of eyes to how everything in the Blackfyre Rebellion plays out if this kind of knowledge was true, wich might be exciting. All in all, were just speculating and researching a theory. It's not canon. GRRM makes the canon and he has alot of aces still up his sleeve so. I just find this "barren detail" very intriguing as it shakes so much things up but doesn't really neglect or contradict the canon alot to the pieces that are affected. Certain pieces are somewhat weakened, while other aspects get strenghtened. Same goes for extrapolating the "barren detail" on Tywin Lannister, wich i'm a fan of that theory aswell. The fun thing about this theory to me is the question born of it "Who was banging Viserys II Wife?" And to me the interesting answer is: Alyn Velaryon, aka Oakenfist. The dude already has twin bastards with Elaena Targaryen, so banging someone in the royal family doesn't seem to be a big deal to him and he was the one who bringed Viserys and Larra from Lys to King's Landing, you know, maybe even making his moves during the voyage? But it gets even better! His brother Addam was a Dragon Rider, so we can say they had "Strong Valyrian Blood"... But wait, there is more! They both were bastard sons of Laenor Velaryon, aka Rhaenyra Targaryen husband and "Father" of the Strong Boys, son of Rhaenys Targaryen and as his mother a dragon rider himself. Yeah he was probrably gay, but Addam also riding a dragon proves they at least had Strong Valyrian Blood, so maybe he was just into the boys mother, Marilda? My point being if Oakenfist was the real father of Larra Rogare children that explains they having strong Valyrian traits and doesn't change to much in Daenerys and Bloodraven bloodline when comes to dragons and Valyrian magic. |
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Post by argotin on Aug 22, 2019 8:15:20 GMT
But why Viserys II is supposed to be barren?
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aconda
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Post by aconda on Aug 22, 2019 9:11:44 GMT
But why Viserys II is supposed to be barren? According to history, he wasn't. But history is not always what it's made to believe and GRRM plays around on several occasions about a flawed telling of history and even distorted perspections of POV characters.
If history from 130 years ago did not mention a king to be barren, there is no one who could tell a different story because any person that would know this kind of sensitive detail would be long dead.
And even if we got to read a story about the time when Viserys was at court and during his short reign.... this information might not get revealed. Because it's so sensitive topic that might damage and destabalise the realm.
The same applies to Tywin. There are theory's about Jaime and Cersei maybe being a secret Targaryen's.... Because the Mad King fancied their mother..... Tywin's wife. Or Tyrion being a secret Targaryen. But why not all?
If Tywin was barren, he would need to find a solution to this and i could find it plausible to see a situation were Tywin knew that he was barren, because that would make him more acceptable to his situation. Aerys was a prety decent man and a friend to Tywin in those early days. If Tywin knew he could not make children, Aerys might be a really good choice as a donor..... handsome and royal blood, perhaps kind even. His wife was a Lannister aswell and Tywin loved her, arguably to have his line continue trough her, with royal blood from his best friend might be a really good choice that he could live with. And well.... Jaime and Cersei were perfect and twins. Something he could be proud of.
I could even argue that if..... the Mad King Aerys did actually cuckold him in a malecious way ..... would the mad king really survive as long as he did?
If you look on the Targaryen family tree trough the filter of ViserysII being barren..... there seems to be some intelligent construct available that would allow for some really cool things. History might never know the truth, but genetics do not lie and can be a source of intriguing research. |
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Post by Elotyr on Aug 22, 2019 9:28:42 GMT
But why Viserys II is supposed to be barren? According to history, he wasn't. But history is not always what it's made to believe and GRRM plays around on several occasions about a flawed telling of history and even distorted perspections of POV characters.
If history from 130 years ago did not mention a king to be barren, there is no one who could tell a different story because any person that would know this kind of sensitive detail would be long dead.
And even if we got to read a story about the time when Viserys was at court and during his short reign.... this information might not get revealed. Because it's so sensitive topic that might damage and destabalise the realm.
The same applies to Tywin. There are theory's about Jaime and Cersei maybe being a secret Targaryen's.... Because the Mad King fancied their mother..... Tywin's wife. Or Tyrion being a secret Targaryen. But why not all?
If Tywin was barren, he would need to find a solution to this and i could find it plausible to see a situation were Tywin knew that he was barren, because that would make him more acceptable to his situation. Aerys was a prety decent man and a friend to Tywin in those early days. If Tywin knew he could not make children, Aerys might be a really good choice as a donor..... handsome and royal blood, perhaps kind even. His wife was a Lannister aswell and Tywin loved her, arguably to have his line continue trough her, with royal blood from his best friend might be a really good choice that he could live with. And well.... Jaime and Cersei were perfect and twins. Something he could be proud of.
I could even argue that if..... the Mad King Aerys did actually cuckold him in a malecious way ..... would the mad king really survive as long as he did?
If you look on the Targaryen family tree trough the filter of ViserysII being barren..... there seems to be some intelligent construct available that would allow for some really cool things. History might never know the truth, but genetics do not lie and can be a source of intriguing research. I think this is wrong when comes to Tywin, Cersei and Jaime are much Lannister looking to say there is some other blood in them and none of their children showing any valyrian characteristics is another thing against they being from the Mad King in my opinion, but when comes to Tyrion... "Tyrion Lannister, the youngest of Lord Tywin's brood, and by far the ugliest. All that the gods had given to Cersei and Jaime, they had denied Tyrion. He was a dwarf, half his brother's height, struggling to keep pace on stunted legs. His head was too large for his body, with a brute's squashed-in face beneath a swollen shelf of brow. One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white. Jon watched him with fascination." - Jon I That dark eye could be a dark purple if you ask me.  [Edit] Thinking more into this maybe one thing that could reconcile that is if the first "donor" was Kevan or other Lannister, but still i don't buy much into it. I feel Tywin's and Aerys story hit so much harder when we think what if the Mad King had bedded Joanna, thinked Tyrion, the baby "monster" was probrably his dragon seed, and then in Harrenhal dicked his hand so hard by in one hit making Jaime, Tywin's trueborn his shield for life while making his bastard heir to all Tywin's legacy... Savage. |
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Post by argotin on Aug 22, 2019 15:04:24 GMT
So, you're making theory without any evidence? That has no sense. I think this is wrong when comes to Tywin, Cersei and Jaime are much Lannister looking to say there is some other blood in them and none of their children showing any valyrian characteristics is another thing against they being from the Mad King in my opinion, but when comes to Tyrion... "Tyrion Lannister, the youngest of Lord Tywin's brood, and by far the ugliest. All that the gods had given to Cersei and Jaime, they had denied Tyrion. He was a dwarf, half his brother's height, struggling to keep pace on stunted legs. His head was too large for his body, with a brute's squashed-in face beneath a swollen shelf of brow. One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white. Jon watched him with fascination." - Jon I That dark eye could be a dark purple if you ask me. [Edit] Thinking more into this maybe one thing that could reconcile that is if the first "donor" was Kevan or other Lannister, but still i don't buy much into it. I feel Tywin's and Aerys story hit so much harder when we think what if the Mad King had bedded Joanna, thinked Tyrion, the baby "monster" was probrably his dragon seed, and then in Harrenhal dicked his hand so hard by in one hit making Jaime, Tywin's trueborn his shield for life while making his bastard heir to all Tywin's legacy... Savage. Tyrion is a dwarf, so his look is twisted, especially when given to that Tywin and Joanna were cousins. Making him Mad King's son destroys his relationship with his father. Tywin hates Tyrion, but it is Tyrion who is much like Tywin, not Cersei or Jaime. |
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aconda
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Post by aconda on Aug 22, 2019 15:48:30 GMT
So, you're making theory without any evidence? That has no sense. The reasoning is in the first post. |
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Post by Elotyr on Aug 22, 2019 15:52:52 GMT
I think that is clear that this threat was not really a theory but more of a "What If?" kind of scenario, so no need to take it so seriously.
About Tyrion and Tywin, well this is your opinion, i personally enjoy the extra layer it gives to they relationship.
Tywin, Westeros best dad btw, is kind of stuck with Tyrion, a drunken whoring dwarf of a son, that if that was true he thinks may not even be his real son, instead of the two handed badass that was Jaime, and yet because of all his assholeness to the kid he becomes the closest to him of all his children when comes to mind.
Also the level of hatred that Tywin has for Tyrion doesn't make a lot of sense, yeah he "killed" his wife by being goddam born, is a dwarf, but making your garrison rape the dude's wife? A bit to much.
Yeah he still a asshole if Tyrion is a dragon seed with hair so blonde is almost white and dark cof.. purple... cof.. eye, but a little more "justified" in his hatred.
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Post by argotin on Aug 22, 2019 16:15:16 GMT
I think that is clear that this threat was not really a theory but more of a "What If?" kind of scenario, so no need to take it so seriously. About Tyrion and Tywin, well this is your opinion, i personally enjoy the extra layer it gives to they relationship. Tywin, Westeros best dad btw, is kind of stuck with Tyrion, a drunken whoring dwarf of a son, that if that was true he thinks may not even be his real son, instead of the two handed badass that was Jaime, and yet because of all his assholeness to the kid he becomes the closest to him of all his children when comes to mind. Also the level of hatred that Tywin has for Tyrion doesn't make a lot of sense, yeah he "killed" his wife by being goddam born, is a dwarf, but making your garrison rape the dude's wife? A bit to much. Yeah he still a asshole if Tyrion is a dragon seed with hair so blonde is almost white and dark cof.. purple... cof.. eye, but a little more "justified" in his hatred. It isn't my opinion but Genna's, she was kinda mother for Tywin's children after Joanna died. And what kind of father is Tywin for Tyrion isn't any evidence if he is truly his son. Tyrion has also strings of black hair, not only pale blonde, and his eyes are black, not purple. When George was talking about hiding purple eyes he depicted them as blue. |
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