|
Post by rufff1 on Oct 18, 2019 8:41:13 GMT
Yeah there isn't even i saying in Westeros about half of the Targaryens being goddam mad... Oh wait. I think the lore explanation is fair, even to Dany own children actually, The Mad King was not a "Oh, the guy was a bad king..." The dude make more than half of his country rebel against him and was the cause of a downfall of a 300 years dynasty, yeah there were some crazys before, but nothing like that. In Dany and her children/descents could be just their mind thinking "Oh shit, what if the blood of Aerys is strong in this one?!" So yeah, i personally like it. Sigh.... this is what happens when people try to be witty and make smart alec remarks when they aren't as smart as they think they are... Particularly when they jump into someone else's conversation and go "Oh wait..." thinking they just dropped a bomb on things when they only screwed their own argument, instead of just being polite. You really need to be more secure in your position before trying to show your ass and attempt to play people online... Because you'll find out that some people know how to bite back, and they would have just been kind had you been polite. Here's why your "logic" is sheer foolishness. YES of course there's a saying - but "Words are Wind" is also a saying, and for damn good reason. Their actions do not reflect the saying. That's the point. Whereas in the mod, their actions do, because having a negative modifier, causes them to actually act differently. Also, Dany having a negative modifier to her own children making sense? Have you even seen her personality? Have you ever even met anyone who has a person with madness in their family? That's not how it works. It is other people who have the issue and look at them with suspicion, typically commoners, not educated people who know better. Regardless, you make very weak points. Especially when in canon there are still Targ loyalists. This, despite the saying about the gods flipping a coin. If you actually look at which Targs suffered the madness, (there's a rather helpful list on the wiki) it was only around five or six, which is crazy low considering how many Targs existed. Which is the entire reason why they only get suspected once they show a hint of actually being affected by it. Because there were far more Targs who showed no issues at all. This is why I suggested making it a revolt risk rather than a reputation risk because commoners, having low opinion of you, doesn't matter in the mod, because they have no armies, no money, no nothing. Only revolt risk actually makes the commoners do anything, and the nobility, has been shown over and over again, to not really care about the risk. See, the nobility didn't actually give a damn that Aerys was mad, they cared that he was being tyrannical. They cared that a Lord Paramount had his daughter (supposedly) stolen, then was killed and so was his son. Nobles are typically insulated against tyranny, but finally, they weren't. That's what they cared about, not madness. Which is why they immediately put someone with Targ blood back on the throne. Because they figured Robert wouldn't be a tyrant. At least not to other nobility. You can be a tyrant to the commoners all day long. And nobles know that tyranny doesn't run in the blood. Unlike the Targ madness. So it still doesn't make sense from a Lore perspective, which is why they kept supporting Targs, up until Aerys and Rhaegar finally went too far, (prior to the whole Lyanna thing, they were having meetings talking about replacing Aerys with Rhaegar because Aerys' madness was becoming apparent, they only revolted once Rhaegar also started fucking up, - in their view - by "stealing" and "raping" Lyanna. If they'd known it was all consensual... no rebellion. At least not by the entire realm. Maybe just the North and Stormlands, if that.) and even then they let Robert have the throne, specifically because he has Targ blood! So they still aren't worried about Targ madness! Unless you think that they were just sooooo worried about that Targ blood that they thought the closest living relative would solve the issue? Seriously, literally every aspect of the story disproves you. Hell, Robert actually very likely has the madness given his personality. "Fear and Blood" being what keeps the country together? Awful close to "Fire and Blood" the very words of the House. His insanity against any "dragonspawn" and so on? Yeah, he's probably got a bit of that rare Targ madness showing. Furthermore, to counter your point about people being suspicious of each other if they all share the bloodline? When people do actually have negative modifiers against people for their bloodline, those with that same bloodline tend to stick together seeing it as "them against the world" because everyone else is treating them like shit for something they can't help. It's no different than any other form of discrimination - people resent it, and they form tribes because of it. Particularly when the people being mistreated are few in number, and so need each other. So again, no, people of the same bloodline disliking each other because of the bloodline rather than for some other reason, still doesn't make any damn sense. Except in the case of one or more of them actually showing that they are affected by that bloodline in the negative way. You can't disprove a point by picking at a single bit of the whole wildly out of context. That's not how logic works. I think Elyotr made a good point in an amusing way, there is no need to be rude here luna. I have stated my views on the matter and see no reason to change things. Also I feel this needs pointing out the negative modifiers from the bloodline is not the be all and end all of opinions it is a -10 with an additional -5 for vassals on top. Considering this mod also increases the relationship bonuses from any family link quite considerably (siblings 10->40, grandparents 10->20, uncles/aunts/nephews/nieces 5->15) its basically dealt with for any close relative and won't have a negative consequence. Its perfectly possible to deal with a maximum -15 opinion penalty - especially in a line that tends to have dragons with the attendant +10 vassal opinion this gives.
|
|
|
Post by Elotyr on Oct 18, 2019 10:51:33 GMT
Sigh.... this is what happens when people try to be witty and make smart alec remarks when they aren't as smart as they think they are... Particularly when they jump into someone else's conversation and go "Oh wait..." thinking they just dropped a bomb on things when they only screwed their own argument, instead of just being polite. You really need to be more secure in your position before trying to show your ass and attempt to play people online... Because you'll find out that some people know how to bite back, and they would have just been kind had you been polite. Here's why your "logic" is sheer foolishness. YES of course there's a saying - but "Words are Wind" is also a saying, and for damn good reason. Their actions do not reflect the saying. That's the point. Whereas in the mod, their actions do, because having a negative modifier, causes them to actually act differently. Also, Dany having a negative modifier to her own children making sense? Have you even seen her personality? Have you ever even met anyone who has a person with madness in their family? That's not how it works. It is other people who have the issue and look at them with suspicion, typically commoners, not educated people who know better. Regardless, you make very weak points. Especially when in canon there are still Targ loyalists. This, despite the saying about the gods flipping a coin. If you actually look at which Targs suffered the madness, (there's a rather helpful list on the wiki) it was only around five or six, which is crazy low considering how many Targs existed. Which is the entire reason why they only get suspected once they show a hint of actually being affected by it. Because there were far more Targs who showed no issues at all. This is why I suggested making it a revolt risk rather than a reputation risk because commoners, having low opinion of you, doesn't matter in the mod, because they have no armies, no money, no nothing. Only revolt risk actually makes the commoners do anything, and the nobility, has been shown over and over again, to not really care about the risk. See, the nobility didn't actually give a damn that Aerys was mad, they cared that he was being tyrannical. They cared that a Lord Paramount had his daughter (supposedly) stolen, then was killed and so was his son. Nobles are typically insulated against tyranny, but finally, they weren't. That's what they cared about, not madness. Which is why they immediately put someone with Targ blood back on the throne. Because they figured Robert wouldn't be a tyrant. At least not to other nobility. You can be a tyrant to the commoners all day long. And nobles know that tyranny doesn't run in the blood. Unlike the Targ madness. So it still doesn't make sense from a Lore perspective, which is why they kept supporting Targs, up until Aerys and Rhaegar finally went too far, (prior to the whole Lyanna thing, they were having meetings talking about replacing Aerys with Rhaegar because Aerys' madness was becoming apparent, they only revolted once Rhaegar also started fucking up, - in their view - by "stealing" and "raping" Lyanna. If they'd known it was all consensual... no rebellion. At least not by the entire realm. Maybe just the North and Stormlands, if that.) and even then they let Robert have the throne, specifically because he has Targ blood! So they still aren't worried about Targ madness! Unless you think that they were just sooooo worried about that Targ blood that they thought the closest living relative would solve the issue? Seriously, literally every aspect of the story disproves you. Hell, Robert actually very likely has the madness given his personality. "Fear and Blood" being what keeps the country together? Awful close to "Fire and Blood" the very words of the House. His insanity against any "dragonspawn" and so on? Yeah, he's probably got a bit of that rare Targ madness showing. Furthermore, to counter your point about people being suspicious of each other if they all share the bloodline? When people do actually have negative modifiers against people for their bloodline, those with that same bloodline tend to stick together seeing it as "them against the world" because everyone else is treating them like shit for something they can't help. It's no different than any other form of discrimination - people resent it, and they form tribes because of it. Particularly when the people being mistreated are few in number, and so need each other. So again, no, people of the same bloodline disliking each other because of the bloodline rather than for some other reason, still doesn't make any damn sense. Except in the case of one or more of them actually showing that they are affected by that bloodline in the negative way. You can't disprove a point by picking at a single bit of the whole wildly out of context. That's not how logic works. I think Elyotr made a good point in an amusing way, there is no need to be rude here luna. I have stated my views on the matter and see no reason to change things. Also I feel this needs pointing out the negative modifiers from the bloodline is not the be all and end all of opinions it is a -10 with an additional -5 for vassals on top. Considering this mod also increases the relationship bonuses from any family link quite considerably (siblings 10->40, grandparents 10->20, uncles/aunts/nephews/nieces 5->15) its basically dealt with for any close relative and won't have a negative consequence. Its perfectly possible to deal with a maximum -15 opinion penalty - especially in a line that tends to have dragons with the attendant +10 vassal opinion this gives. Thanks Rufff1, and yeah, as i said before the opnion modifier sounds pretty fair to me, principally when taking the increase in relationships bonus. lunasmeow, sorry if i was a smartass in my comment, offending was not the intention, but saying that the opinion of if your father was mad you also will be isn't a thing in westeros is a big stretch. We have Maegor Targaryen being passed in the GC of 233 A.C bassicly because of that as it official reason, but please can we leave at that and agree do disagree? Really don't want to cramp Rufff1's threat with another lore discussion until he gets sick of it and tell us to get that thing somewhere else with nice words Anyway, if people don't like it or disagree with the modifiers in a bloodline they can always go to AGOT More Bloodlines/common/bloodlines, open the file search for the one, in this case: mad_king, erase or reduce the general_opinion modifier, or maybe add a high_valyrian_opinion = 10, as Aerys was the last "pure blood" Valyrian king or something like that would fix Dany's children opinion if still a problem. Hope it helps o/
|
|
|
Post by Kai on Oct 18, 2019 19:48:03 GMT
Yeah there isn't even i saying in Westeros about half of the Targaryens being goddam mad... Oh wait. I think the lore explanation is fair, even to Dany own children actually, The Mad King was not a "Oh, the guy was a bad king..." The dude make more than half of his country rebel against him and was the cause of a downfall of a 300 years dynasty, yeah there were some crazys before, but nothing like that. In Dany and her children/descents could be just their mind thinking "Oh shit, what if the blood of Aerys is strong in this one?!" So yeah, i personally like it. [...] Have you ever even met anyone who has a person with madness in their family? That's not how it works. It is other people who have the issue and look at them with suspicion, typically commoners, not educated people who know better. [...] [...] So again, no, people of the same bloodline disliking each other because of the bloodline rather than for some other reason, still doesn't make any damn sense. Except in the case of one or more of them actually showing that they are affected by that bloodline in the negative way. [...] I'm a very neutral person who is able to see both sides of any argument. I'm basically of the same mind as "The Dude" from the Big Lebowski and like chilling and gaming. So with the fact that im not confronting you or arguing out of the way I can respond to the points that really stuck out to me which I quoted above. My grandmother suffers from borderline personality disorder and severe depression. Because of this my mother who was raised by a "loony", as she would put it, never had a great relationship with my grandmother, and raised me and my brothers in such a way as to encourage feelings of contempt for those with mental illness. When I began to show signs of mental illness when I was 13, I began to resent my grandmother and myself for having this genetic "weakness"; and even feared at one point passing it on to my children. It took me a decade to come to terms with my own health and try to help my family understand it - which they don't. but do better than they did. Anyways, sorry for story time all, I feel very strongly about this subject since it's very relevant to my own life and just 10 minutes ago made the connection in similarities between my own family story and that of the mad king XD OH and the mod is still awesome :) its on the list of mods I will not play the game without!! It would be interesting to see more events tied to family lore but I can understand a lack of lore might prevent it. I've really liked bringing the Oakenseat back to life and regrowing the Blackwood Weirwood and think the associated bloodlines are neat.
|
|
|
Post by Karl on Oct 19, 2019 4:24:53 GMT
In other news, @ruff1, I had a thought. There are no bloodlines for the Golden Empire of Yi-Ti. I mean, we have them in-game, (long dead, but existing) and they are supposedly direct descendants of the Lion of Night and the Maiden Made of Light - which is why, I assume, they were supposedly able to live for a thousand years or more in multiple cases - but there is no bloodline for them. Hell, even the freaking Bloodstone Emperor doesn't have a bloodline, and he is the one who supposedly caused the Long Night.You'd think that the Golden Empire had a major health bonus that gave such long life, and that the Bloodstone Emperor had another bloodline added from the Old Ones that he worshiped. Especially since Starry Wisdom is a religion available... Not sure why they were skipped over by the main mod, would you consider adding stuff for them? I think Yi Ti is the most bloodline dense area in the game as it is right now, though they are the of the standard +2 opinion for <culture> variety. I'm pretty confident that the tales of thousand year reigns and the like are mythological. I mean, I can't be sure, but when someone tells me tales of a great realm in the far east where emperors reign for a thousand years and summon the greatest evil... It's not too dissimilar to the kinds of weird tales that were told of faraway realms in real world Europe, which is why I got the impression that GRRM was playing off of that.
|
|
|
Post by azagal on Oct 20, 2019 13:31:01 GMT
Is there any way to make Houses like Rainhill and Hillbeck or even Oldflowers to adopt their ancestral names and dynasty, thereby legitimizing them ? I kinda want to return the Rainhill's and Hillbecks to their rightful seats, but I have no idea to make them their true selves again.
|
|
Balerion
Member
Targaryen Loyalist
Posts: 100
|
Post by Balerion on Oct 20, 2019 13:37:31 GMT
Is there any way to make Houses like Rainhill and Hillbeck or even Oldflowers to adopt their ancestral names and dynasty, thereby legitimizing them ? I kinda want to return the Rainhill's and Hillbecks to their rightful seats, but I have no idea to make them their true selves again. Rainhills and Hillbecks both already can adopt Reyne and Tarbeck respectively. Though the founders of both those houses aren't getting legitimized. It would have to be added to the events file.
|
|
|
Post by Elotyr on Oct 20, 2019 18:45:47 GMT
In the next update can my boy Illyrio get a bloodline? I think the free cities deserve some more love, and this is the closest thing that we can get to a functional Varys bloodline xD
|
|
|
Post by rufff1 on Oct 20, 2019 19:12:56 GMT
In the next update can my boy Illyrio get a bloodline? I think the free cities deserve some more love, and this is the closest thing that we can get to a functional Varys bloodline xD Hmmm can I have a proposal for the features?
|
|
|
Post by Elotyr on Oct 20, 2019 19:31:05 GMT
In the next update can my boy Illyrio get a bloodline? I think the free cities deserve some more love, and this is the closest thing that we can get to a functional Varys bloodline xD Hmmm can I have a proposal for the features? I think ambitious and duelist suit him, maybe a sex appeal bonus or brawny? The dude was said to be muscular and exceptionally handsome in his time as a bravo, and even as a morbid fat ass he still moves with grace, also a plot power bonus, being Varys partner since they were young and all that. Edit: I forgot goddam Schemer, with all the Aegon plot, Dany with Drogo, Viserys... What a lad.
|
|
|
Post by rufff1 on Oct 24, 2019 12:43:09 GMT
Bit of a dev diary/discussion starter here: As part of the work on 2.0 (which is gonna be a rather extensive update covering a lot of ground ) we are adding additional custom dynasty gfx ethnicities with the strong seed system. Currently we have added the following: House Blackwood - Black hair, dark brown eyes House Bracken - Muddy brown hair, brown eyes House Bolton - Full range of northern hair colours, but only exceptionally pale blue eyes House Celtigar - Westerosi Valyrian House Dayne - Westerosi Valyrian House Velaryon - High Valyrian House Yronwood - Blonde hair, blue eyes We have added strong seed blocks for some characters who buck their house looks so Harry "Rivers" Bracken who is fair haired (making Tytos suspect he isn't Jonos' son) and Gwyneth Yronwood ("whose dark eyes and brown hair set her apart in that house of blue-eyed blondes"). I'm also planning on adding red-gold hair to the Dondarrions as we are told that multiple members of the house have that appearance. Does anyone have any suggestions of any house that has a regular house appearance that persists across generations that could be added - thing like tall Umbers and fat Manderlys are best handled via traits - I'm primarily thinking about hair and eye colour?
|
|
aconda
Modder (CK2)
Posts: 376
|
Post by aconda on Oct 24, 2019 13:28:10 GMT
Maybe big ears for the Florents. I'm not entirely sure about appearance entries for Hair colours. Ears is the 8th entry and having "0" on that spot seems to give the biggest ears we have available. (Were they pointy ears or is that my headcanon?)
|
|
|
Post by rufff1 on Oct 24, 2019 14:39:00 GMT
Maybe big ears for the Florents. I'm not entirely sure about appearance entries for Hair colours. Ears is the 8th entry and having "0" on that spot seems to give the biggest ears we have available. (Were they pointy ears or is that my headcanon?) I think its just big ears - but this can't be handled via custom gfx, it may be possible to handle this via event although I've never seen any events that modify dna strings and I don't know if there is even a command that could do it or it is just hardcoded (generally dna strings come half from father half from mother in the CK2 engine as I understand it) so not really sure if this is doable,
|
|
|
Post by Kai on Oct 24, 2019 15:19:25 GMT
Bit of a dev diary/discussion starter here: As part of the work on 2.0 (which is gonna be a rather extensive update covering a lot of ground :) ) we are adding additional custom dynasty gfx ethnicities with the strong seed system. Currently we have added the following: [...] Does anyone have any suggestions of any house that has a regular house appearance that persists across generations that could be added - thing like tall Umbers and fat Manderlys are best handled via traits - I'm primarily thinking about hair and eye colour? Would this be compatible with submods like "Faces Modification"? I know based on references from Fire and Blood that Alysanne Blackwood (b. 113 AC) had black hair and based off of descriptions of other notable Blackwoods like Tytos Blackwood as well as the fact that House Blackwood is a former Northern House, might assume that black hair is a common attribute of the Blackwoods. There are more that I cant think of right now. I'll update as I remember lol Is heterochromia possible? If so there are a few characters in the lore who have that trait. Shiera "Seastar" had one blue eye and one green eye, Euron Greyjoy had one blue eye one ... mystery eye ... Tyrion Lannister has one green eye and one dark colored. Some Targaryens also have been known to have gold colored hair, or silver with streaks of gold (as is the case with Elaena Targaryen), or even silver hair with a gold, silver-streaked beard (as was the case with Jaehaerys I Targaryen).
|
|
|
Post by Elotyr on Oct 24, 2019 16:18:04 GMT
... Does anyone have any suggestions of any house that has a regular house appearance that persists across generations that could be added - thing like tall Umbers and fat Manderlys are best handled via traits - I'm primarily thinking about hair and eye colour? Maybe the Whent/Lothson red hair? Even in the Tullys i always saw it more as a heritage of Catelyn's mom, Sansa for example being referenced more as a Whent than a Tully sometimes, half wolf half bat and all that.
|
|
|
Post by rufff1 on Oct 24, 2019 16:26:18 GMT
... Does anyone have any suggestions of any house that has a regular house appearance that persists across generations that could be added - thing like tall Umbers and fat Manderlys are best handled via traits - I'm primarily thinking about hair and eye colour? Maybe the Whent/Lothson red hair? Even in the Tullys i always saw it more as a heritage of Catelyn's mom, Sansa for example being referenced more as a Whent than a Tully sometimes, half wolf half bat and all that. I know Mad Danelle Lothston had red hair but I hadn’t hear about the Whents having red hair - I thought high cheekbones was their defining feature (also I need to go and check Aegon the Unworthies mistress cos if she has red hair it’s clearly a defining Lothston trait )
|
|