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Post by rufff1 on Aug 28, 2019 16:11:46 GMT
Having a "tier" based system really helps with fleshing out a level for each seperate existing case, making it possible to get some consistancy within a "magical" construct. Some consistancy for those early days of a warg does seem to indicate a bonding aspect, aswell some degree of telepathic/empathic influence with the animal kind of being able to know/feeling what their warg/skinchanger partner wants. For GRRM this allows to justify anything the animals do, being able to steer them easily as a plot device and for us, the reader it will play into our expectations. Because we want to see a huge direwolf that behaves itself around other people and not randomly tearing people apart for feeding purpose and we like to see that the animal kind of does what we need it to do. So Ghost joining up again with Jon after the whole battle for the wall chapters, can be easily justified as something realistic within this construct. Jeor's bond with his Raven seems to indicate this kind of construct aswell. All of the Stark's seem to have this same construct in place early on, even Shaggydog's behaviour with a young and wild Rickon. And... well, even dragonbonding might follow this same construct. Arguably, an early version of warging/skinchanging. Maybe it's the only version available when it comes to dragons. The wolf dreams might fit the lvl1 construct, growing a person more and more into a 2nd level of warging/skinchanging, before really opening their 3rd eye. The green dreams are an entirely different topic, related to the magical construct but different. Sometimes i ask myself if Jeor's Raven is not just the way Bloodraven has to keep i eye in the Lord Commander of the Wall, the way he influenced Jon's ellection and stayed with him seems to hint to that. Btw, talking about Skinchangers using animals to keeping a eye out in someone, are you guys thinking in adding a way to use them in murder plots/assassinations? Assassinations are beyond the level of my competence at this point and the boar theory is a bit tinfoil and as yet unconfirmed, as for why I’m pretty convinced the raven is Jeor’s is the way it’s vocabulary grows considerably after he dies - even being able to speak Jon Snows full name where once it only repeated the last word of sentences it heard, suggesting it is Jeor’s second life |
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Post by rufff1 on Aug 28, 2019 16:26:19 GMT
Don’t really agree, Jorah’s raven seems newish or at least it’s be a miraculously long lived raven if he had it in childhood and Rob and Jon were both nearly adults when they got their animals, plus our sample size to work out the rules of skin changing is less than 20 people Yes you have a point in that, but the way i was thinking is like that: You can get the Warg trait as a child, being able to go out of your own skin when sleeping, but not necessarily claiming a second one, then you can get the event to trigger as a adult to claim one, as in Jeor's raven example. I’m broadly happy with the system as it stands although I will decrease the likelihood of the trait being gained by 30% at base, if I were to tier anything it’d be greensight - currently there is no distinction between Jojen with his dreams and Brynden and Bran who are actual greenseers - I have thought about tweaking the greensight trait and adding a second tier of greenseer to it - the event would be simple enough - we are told for every 1000 skinchangers born one is a greenseer (as an aside the fact that the quote from Brynden also says “Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger” so I do wonder if there are 20,000 odd latent skinchangers running around the north lol, assuming first men blood is also needed) so the event would trigger for skinchangers and just run a ranodom number generator with a 1/1000 chance of giving the full blown greenseer trait and the other 999 giving a flag that blocks the event running again (maybe there’s a 5% chance of getting basic green dreams also seeing as so many starks have them as well as Jojen), the only thing that’s stopped me doing this is I’m not sure what to do with the Greenseer trait once it’s granted - Hammer of the Waters if there were more than 30 greenseers in existence might be a fun one (the near impossibility of that many greenseers could stop it being OP) and maybe some immortality at the cost of paralysis if there’s only one greenseer in the world at the time but I haven’t given it enough thought |
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aconda
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Post by aconda on Aug 28, 2019 16:35:42 GMT
Having a "tier" based system really helps with fleshing out a level for each seperate existing case, making it possible to get some consistancy within a "magical" construct. Some consistancy for those early days of a warg does seem to indicate a bonding aspect, aswell some degree of telepathic/empathic influence with the animal kind of being able to know/feeling what their warg/skinchanger partner wants. For GRRM this allows to justify anything the animals do, being able to steer them easily as a plot device and for us, the reader it will play into our expectations. Because we want to see a huge direwolf that behaves itself around other people and not randomly tearing people apart for feeding purpose and we like to see that the animal kind of does what we need it to do. So Ghost joining up again with Jon after the whole battle for the wall chapters, can be easily justified as something realistic within this construct. Jeor's bond with his Raven seems to indicate this kind of construct aswell. All of the Stark's seem to have this same construct in place early on, even Shaggydog's behaviour with a young and wild Rickon. And... well, even dragonbonding might follow this same construct. Arguably, an early version of warging/skinchanging. Maybe it's the only version available when it comes to dragons. The wolf dreams might fit the lvl1 construct, growing a person more and more into a 2nd level of warging/skinchanging, before really opening their 3rd eye. The green dreams are an entirely different topic, related to the magical construct but different. Sometimes i ask myself if Jeor's Raven is not just the way Bloodraven has to keep i eye in the Lord Commander of the Wall, the way he influenced Jon's ellection and stayed with him seems to hint to that. Btw, talking about Skinchangers using animals to keeping a eye out in someone, are you guys thinking in adding a way to use them in murder plots/assassinations? Haha yes, i agree that Bloodraven would use Mormont's raven if a situation would be justified. Not only for spying purpose.... because well, a greenseer has the sight, but that mechanic would work trough a different set of rules but rather, maybe with the verbal ability a raven would allow for. Kinda same with how Ghost would behave at times and does things..... like leading Jon somewere important.
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Post by Elotyr on Aug 28, 2019 16:40:48 GMT
Sometimes i ask myself if Jeor's Raven is not just the way Bloodraven has to keep i eye in the Lord Commander of the Wall, the way he influenced Jon's ellection and stayed with him seems to hint to that. Btw, talking about Skinchangers using animals to keeping a eye out in someone, are you guys thinking in adding a way to use them in murder plots/assassinations? Assassinations are beyond the level of my competence at this point and the boar theory is a bit tinfoil and as yet unconfirmed, as for why I’m pretty convinced the raven is Jeor’s is the way it’s vocabulary grows considerably after he dies - even being able to speak Jon Snows full name where once it only repeated the last word of sentences it heard, suggesting it is Jeor’s second life Yes that is fair, but maybe adding something like a plot modifier to traits like bat, cat or raven to reflect you being able to stalk your targets in animal form would be a good addition? Like in the modifier in Oberyn bloodline for example. And goddamit your ideias from Greensight are looking amazing!  About the immortality ideia, could work like with the Azor Ahai bloodline, something like "Blood of the Three Eyed Raven", and a "One with the Weirwoods" trait or something like that working like the "Ressurect by Rhllor" |
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aconda
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Post by aconda on Aug 28, 2019 16:58:45 GMT
Yes you have a point in that, but the way i was thinking is like that: You can get the Warg trait as a child, being able to go out of your own skin when sleeping, but not necessarily claiming a second one, then you can get the event to trigger as a adult to claim one, as in Jeor's raven example. I’m broadly happy with the system as it stands although I will decrease the likelihood of the trait being gained by 30% at base, if I were to tier anything it’d be greensight - currently there is no distinction between Jojen with his dreams and Brynden and Bran who are actual greenseers - I have thought about tweaking the greensight trait and adding a second tier of greenseer to it - the event would be simple enough - we are told for every 1000 skinchangers born one is a greenseer (as an aside the fact that the quote from Brynden also says “Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger” so I do wonder if there are 20,000 odd latent skinchangers running around the north lol, assuming first men blood is also needed) so the event would trigger for skinchangers and just run a ranodom number generator with a 1/1000 chance of giving the full blown greenseer trait and the other 999 giving a flag that blocks the event running again (maybe there’s a 5% chance of getting basic green dreams also seeing as so many starks have them as well as Jojen), the only thing that’s stopped me doing this is I’m not sure what to do with the Greenseer trait once it’s granted - Hammer of the Waters if there were more than 30 greenseers in existence might be a fun one (the near impossibility of that many greenseers could stop it being OP) and maybe some immortality at the cost of paralysis if there’s only one greenseer in the world at the time but I haven’t given it enough thought My understanding about the topic can come short of details, so is possibly flawed. A warg can only warg into a wolf or a dog. A skinchanger can potentially warg into other animals aswell. Someone who has the sight, like Jojen Reed.... has prophectic greendreams.
A warg or skinchanger doesn't have prophetic greendreams, nor is Jojen able to warg/skinchange into another animal.
But a greenseer has atleast all of the mentioned skills and perhaps even more.
The show's mechanics put the greensight dreams from bran... and jojen with an astounding accuracy of maybe 100% But in the books Jojen tell's us that the greendreams are not always that easy to unravel and interpetate, more like how we know Melisandre her magic works. Dragon dreams can follow a similiar construct as the greendreams do.
Bran learns from Jojen about his warging ability's.
The construct that seems in place with this is that Bran needs to learn how to gain control of the wolf body. In the early stages, Bran his mind is in the wolf, but it's mostly the wolf that makes decisions.... and Jojen tries to learn Bran to consiously take control. To establish a consistant base for greendreams might be more favorable with a slight different setup...... not one where the user can learn to have better greendreams, but rather one that would be permanently be set from the start.... grained into maybe a genetical aspect to determine the accuracy. Jojen has the sight, has sometimes problems to interpret the dreams, for example he has a 40% tier level of accuracy. Bran's tier level could be as clear as day, a 100% Bloodraven might have a similiar level as bran..... but might also come slightly shorter. 80% maybe? Maybe the construct can be something like this, set at birth.
Bran is put forward as a really important person.... or tool in the great war. And he might have more hidden ability's like perhaps being able to whisper trough time to people that are maybe sensitive enough to recieve it.
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Post by rufff1 on Aug 28, 2019 16:59:36 GMT
Assassinations are beyond the level of my competence at this point and the boar theory is a bit tinfoil and as yet unconfirmed, as for why I’m pretty convinced the raven is Jeor’s is the way it’s vocabulary grows considerably after he dies - even being able to speak Jon Snows full name where once it only repeated the last word of sentences it heard, suggesting it is Jeor’s second life Yes that is fair, but maybe adding something like a plot modifier to traits like bat, cat or raven to reflect you being able to stalk your targets in animal form would be a good addition? Like in the modifier in Oberyn bloodline for example. And goddamit your ideias from Greensight are looking amazing! About the immortality ideia, could work like with the Azor Ahai bloodline, something like "Blood of the Three Eyed Raven", and a "One with the Weirwoods" trait or something like that working like the "Ressurect by Rhllor" well the cats bats and ravens already let you foil plots and cats and bats boost your intrigue so that's kinda already in. I'll give some thought to a minor plot power boost. Immortality wise I was just thinking like the immortality trait you get in vanilla via hermetics - its not gonna bring you back if you're stabbed like Azor Ahai will, but it will let you not die of old age or disease (I'm pretty sure Bloodraven the person would die if someone stabbed him even if his mind would join the gestalt consciousness in the trees). Then when another greenseer roles around the character would have a few years to give them their knowledge then have the opportunity to pass on |
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Post by Elotyr on Aug 28, 2019 17:14:01 GMT
I’m broadly happy with the system as it stands although I will decrease the likelihood of the trait being gained by 30% at base, if I were to tier anything it’d be greensight - currently there is no distinction between Jojen with his dreams and Brynden and Bran who are actual greenseers - I have thought about tweaking the greensight trait and adding a second tier of greenseer to it - the event would be simple enough - we are told for every 1000 skinchangers born one is a greenseer (as an aside the fact that the quote from Brynden also says “Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger” so I do wonder if there are 20,000 odd latent skinchangers running around the north lol, assuming first men blood is also needed) so the event would trigger for skinchangers and just run a ranodom number generator with a 1/1000 chance of giving the full blown greenseer trait and the other 999 giving a flag that blocks the event running again (maybe there’s a 5% chance of getting basic green dreams also seeing as so many starks have them as well as Jojen), the only thing that’s stopped me doing this is I’m not sure what to do with the Greenseer trait once it’s granted - Hammer of the Waters if there were more than 30 greenseers in existence might be a fun one (the near impossibility of that many greenseers could stop it being OP) and maybe some immortality at the cost of paralysis if there’s only one greenseer in the world at the time but I haven’t given it enough thought My understanding about the topic can come short of details, so is possibly flawed. A warg can only warg into a wolf or a dog. A skinchanger can potentially warg into other animals aswell. Someone who has the sight, like Jojen Reed.... has prophectic greendreams.
A warg or skinchanger doesn't have prophetic greendreams, nor is Jojen able to warg/skinchange into another animal.
But a greenseer has atleast all of the mentioned skills and perhaps even more.
The show's mechanics put the greensight dreams from bran... and jojen with an astounding accuracy of maybe 100% But in the books Jojen tell's us that the greendreams are not always that easy to unravel and interpetate, more like how we know Melisandre her magic works. Dragon dreams can follow a similiar construct as the greendreams do.
Bran learns from Jojen about his warging ability's.
The construct that seems in place with this is that Bran needs to learn how to gain control of the wolf body. In the early stages, Bran his mind is in the wolf, but it's mostly the wolf that makes decisions.... and Jojen tries to learn Bran to consiously take control. To establish a consistant base for greendreams might be more favorable with a slight different setup...... not one where the user can learn to have better greendreams, but rather one that would be permanently be set from the start.... grained into maybe a genetical aspect to determine the accuracy. Jojen has the sight, has sometimes problems to interpret the dreams, for example he has a 40% tier level of accuracy. Bran's tier level could be as clear as day, a 100% Bloodraven might have a similiar level as bran..... but might also come slightly shorter. 80% maybe? Maybe the construct can be something like this, set at birth.
Bran is put forward as a really important person.... or tool in the great war. And he might have more hidden ability's like perhaps being able to whisper trough time to people that are maybe sensitive enough to recieve it.
Yes, did you read "A Song for Lya"? is a old George's story and if you go from that one... Whelp everyone in Westeros is pretty much fecked if Bran joins the Weirwood net, even Varamyr, the second most powerful skinchanger we see can't do what Bran does in skinchang in another human, if the Children get this kind of power in the same way as the Grishka did with human telepaths... Feck. i myself already roleplay that if my character has greensight when he dies and i go for his children is still the same guy, just warging his kid in a Bran/Hodor way  |
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Post by rufff1 on Aug 28, 2019 17:14:07 GMT
I’m broadly happy with the system as it stands although I will decrease the likelihood of the trait being gained by 30% at base, if I were to tier anything it’d be greensight - currently there is no distinction between Jojen with his dreams and Brynden and Bran who are actual greenseers - I have thought about tweaking the greensight trait and adding a second tier of greenseer to it - the event would be simple enough - we are told for every 1000 skinchangers born one is a greenseer (as an aside the fact that the quote from Brynden also says “Only one man in a thousand is born a skinchanger” so I do wonder if there are 20,000 odd latent skinchangers running around the north lol, assuming first men blood is also needed) so the event would trigger for skinchangers and just run a ranodom number generator with a 1/1000 chance of giving the full blown greenseer trait and the other 999 giving a flag that blocks the event running again (maybe there’s a 5% chance of getting basic green dreams also seeing as so many starks have them as well as Jojen), the only thing that’s stopped me doing this is I’m not sure what to do with the Greenseer trait once it’s granted - Hammer of the Waters if there were more than 30 greenseers in existence might be a fun one (the near impossibility of that many greenseers could stop it being OP) and maybe some immortality at the cost of paralysis if there’s only one greenseer in the world at the time but I haven’t given it enough thought My understanding about the topic can come short of details, so is possibly flawed. A warg can only warg into a wolf or a dog. A skinchanger can potentially warg into other animals aswell. Someone who has the sight, like Jojen Reed.... has prophectic greendreams.
A warg or skinchanger doesn't have prophetic greendreams, nor is Jojen able to warg/skinchange into another animal.
But a greenseer has atleast all of the mentioned skills and perhaps even more.
The show's mechanics put the greensight dreams from bran... and jojen with an astounding accuracy of maybe 100% But in the books Jojen tell's us that the greendreams are not always that easy to unravel and interpetate, more like how we know Melisandre her magic works. Dragon dreams can follow a similiar construct as the greendreams do.
Bran learns from Jojen about his warging ability's.
The construct that seems in place with this is that Bran needs to learn how to gain control of the wolf body. In the early stages, Bran his mind is in the wolf, but it's mostly the wolf that makes decisions.... and Jojen tries to learn Bran to consiously take control. To establish a consistant base for greendreams might be more favorable with a slight different setup...... not one where the user can learn to have better greendreams, but rather one that would be permanently be set from the start.... grained into maybe a genetical aspect to determine the accuracy. Jojen has the sight, has sometimes problems to interpret the dreams, for example he has a 40% tier level of accuracy. Bran's tier level could be as clear as day, a 100% Bloodraven might have a similiar level as bran..... but might also come slightly shorter. 80% maybe? Maybe the construct can be something like this, set at birth.
Bran is put forward as a really important person.... or tool in the great war. And he might have more hidden ability's like perhaps being able to whisper trough time to people that are maybe sensitive enough to recieve it.
You are entirely correct but the game can't model magic and prophecy too well, seeing as things aren't predetermined, so green/dragon dreams just offer intrigue boosts and the rare chance to uncover plots+prove bastardy, so arguably the green dreams trait is far more reflective of Jojen than of Bran, I'm not really sure how an accuracy system could work, my thoughts on a greenseer trait would it would just be bigger bonuses and maybe a few unique effects |
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Post by Elotyr on Aug 28, 2019 17:27:08 GMT
Yes that is fair, but maybe adding something like a plot modifier to traits like bat, cat or raven to reflect you being able to stalk your targets in animal form would be a good addition? Like in the modifier in Oberyn bloodline for example. And goddamit your ideias from Greensight are looking amazing! About the immortality ideia, could work like with the Azor Ahai bloodline, something like "Blood of the Three Eyed Raven", and a "One with the Weirwoods" trait or something like that working like the "Ressurect by Rhllor" well the cats bats and ravens already let you foil plots and cats and bats boost your intrigue so that's kinda already in. I'll give some thought to a minor plot power boost. Immortality wise I was just thinking like the immortality trait you get in vanilla via hermetics - its not gonna bring you back if you're stabbed like Azor Ahai will, but it will let you not die of old age or disease (I'm pretty sure Bloodraven the person would die if someone stabbed him even if his mind would join the gestalt consciousness in the trees). Then when another greenseer roles around the character would have a few years to give them their knowledge then have the opportunity to pass on You're probrably right, but then again he has tree branch coming of his empty eye socket, at this point i personally see him being more the tree than his body itself. But yes, a Vanilla imortality works better, maybe adding something like unable to be a commander and debuffs as in a worst version of crippled? You can't even move after all. |
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Post by aconda on Aug 28, 2019 17:33:05 GMT
My understanding about the topic can come short of details, so is possibly flawed. A warg can only warg into a wolf or a dog. A skinchanger can potentially warg into other animals aswell. Someone who has the sight, like Jojen Reed.... has prophectic greendreams.
A warg or skinchanger doesn't have prophetic greendreams, nor is Jojen able to warg/skinchange into another animal.
But a greenseer has atleast all of the mentioned skills and perhaps even more.
The show's mechanics put the greensight dreams from bran... and jojen with an astounding accuracy of maybe 100% But in the books Jojen tell's us that the greendreams are not always that easy to unravel and interpetate, more like how we know Melisandre her magic works. Dragon dreams can follow a similiar construct as the greendreams do.
Bran learns from Jojen about his warging ability's.
The construct that seems in place with this is that Bran needs to learn how to gain control of the wolf body. In the early stages, Bran his mind is in the wolf, but it's mostly the wolf that makes decisions.... and Jojen tries to learn Bran to consiously take control. To establish a consistant base for greendreams might be more favorable with a slight different setup...... not one where the user can learn to have better greendreams, but rather one that would be permanently be set from the start.... grained into maybe a genetical aspect to determine the accuracy. Jojen has the sight, has sometimes problems to interpret the dreams, for example he has a 40% tier level of accuracy. Bran's tier level could be as clear as day, a 100% Bloodraven might have a similiar level as bran..... but might also come slightly shorter. 80% maybe? Maybe the construct can be something like this, set at birth.
Bran is put forward as a really important person.... or tool in the great war. And he might have more hidden ability's like perhaps being able to whisper trough time to people that are maybe sensitive enough to recieve it.
You are entirely correct but the game can't model magic and prophecy too well, seeing as things aren't predetermined, so green/dragon dreams just offer intrigue boosts and the rare chance to uncover plots+prove bastardy, so arguably the green dreams trait is far more reflective of Jojen than of Bran, I'm not really sure how an accuracy system could work, my thoughts on a greenseer trait would it would just be bigger bonuses and maybe a few unique effects The dragondreams have a decission option to uncover plots, but i don't think there's something for people with the greensight yet? greensight and greenseer's could have access to a similiar based decission system as dragondreams have maybe
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Post by rufff1 on Aug 28, 2019 17:35:55 GMT
well the cats bats and ravens already let you foil plots and cats and bats boost your intrigue so that's kinda already in. I'll give some thought to a minor plot power boost. Immortality wise I was just thinking like the immortality trait you get in vanilla via hermetics - its not gonna bring you back if you're stabbed like Azor Ahai will, but it will let you not die of old age or disease (I'm pretty sure Bloodraven the person would die if someone stabbed him even if his mind would join the gestalt consciousness in the trees). Then when another greenseer roles around the character would have a few years to give them their knowledge then have the opportunity to pass on You're probrably right, but then again he has tree branch coming of his empty eye socket, at this point i personally see him being more the tree than his body itself. But yes, a Vanilla imortality works better, maybe adding something like unable to be a commander and debuffs as in a worst version of crippled? You can even move after all. yeah I'd make them incapable and infertile, it'd be a decision in old age or something to prolong the character's life to preserve the knowledge of the greenseers - also the insult could be something fun like "rotting tree corpse" or smthg |
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Post by rufff1 on Aug 28, 2019 17:37:00 GMT
You are entirely correct but the game can't model magic and prophecy too well, seeing as things aren't predetermined, so green/dragon dreams just offer intrigue boosts and the rare chance to uncover plots+prove bastardy, so arguably the green dreams trait is far more reflective of Jojen than of Bran, I'm not really sure how an accuracy system could work, my thoughts on a greenseer trait would it would just be bigger bonuses and maybe a few unique effects The dragondreams have a decission option to uncover plots, but i don't think there's something for people with the greensight yet? greensight and greenseer's could have access to a similiar based decission system as dragondreams have maybe
I added an event where greensight uncovers plots same as cats do - its rare to reflect that green dreams aren't foolproof |
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aconda
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Post by aconda on Aug 28, 2019 17:39:59 GMT
pff, come to think of it.... the whole "opening of the 3rd" eye seems referenced to warging/skinchanging ability's for Bran's chapters.....and not specifically part to the sight/greendreams mechanics.
For a greenseer the reference might be all the same though. Will keep an eye out about it.
.....
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Post by Elotyr on Aug 28, 2019 17:49:23 GMT
pff, come to think of it.... the whole "opening of the 3rd" eye seems referenced to warging/skinchanging ability's for Bran's chapters.....and not specifically part to the sight/greendreams mechanics. For a greenseer the reference might be all the same though. Will keep an eye out about it. ..... To me the opening of the third eye was a way to learn how to warg at will, meaning you can consciously go for your animal skin and control it. Maybe the equivalent of this with the green sight is seek for information at will in dreams? |
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aconda
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Post by aconda on Aug 28, 2019 17:49:51 GMT
The dragondreams have a decission option to uncover plots, but i don't think there's something for people with the greensight yet? greensight and greenseer's could have access to a similiar based decission system as dragondreams have maybe
I added an event where greensight uncovers plots same as cats do - its rare to reflect that green dreams aren't foolproof Nods.... it is. The show gave us a visual presentation with like a 100% and clear as day accuracy with the books telling us a different version trough Jojen's stories and Bran's dreams. (like the sea coming to winterfell) That dream, does indicate that Bran would need to learn how to interpretate his dreams.
EDIT: In the books it is Jojen who has the dream about "the sea coming to Winterfell" and in the show they pushed that part to Bran's arc. Wich in return gives Bran a vision about a future event in the show. Jojen has atleast 2 future visions happening in the books.
Jojen tells us in the books that greendreams always come true and that he's able to distinguish when something is a greendream.... or just a regular dream.
Maybe bran's dream was just a dream, with a slight prophetic tint.... but maybe it was infact a solid greendream, but would bran have been more experienced when it happend, he'd actually have seen Theon and the kraken greyjoy's assault winterfell.
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