Post by newbieone on Mar 17, 2018 19:05:46 GMT
As a Targ you probably naturally want to hold it and keep it together, with some variance re: diplomacy vs outright bloody conquest. As a son or husband (e.g. Laenor) it's probably the same.
But let's say you don't really have a strong claim or a reason to identify with the Targs or the Iron Throne, perhaps you get the throne via elective succession or an outright faction demand. Or you depose and replace a particularly bad Targ. What do you do next? Hold it the way it was, that specific polity designed by the first Targs and their successors? Or gradually inherit and subsume/integrate the various kingdoms into your dynasty (or multidukes, military commands etc.) for a more typical, unified feudal polity? Or do you grant independence to all LPs, with the IT remaining as, let's say, an elective monarchy in the Crownlands alone?
Context:
In my current game, I played as ser Eustace Osgrey in the After the Spring start, receiving the Northmarch and ultimately inheriting the Reach through matrimarriage to a deposed Oakheart LP, who peacefully inherited his replacement (sister), after the Oakhearts replaced the Tyrells via faction demand. Meanwhile I've inherited the senior Blackfyre line in so far as this can even be done non-agnatically, along with a larger number of their other lines (pretty much all of DB1's kinds' senior lines of descent, also Bittersteel's and Bloodraven's, just probably not Daeron II's senior line of descent, though I'd have to check), so I could justify fabricating the claim on the IT and ultimately revolting to get it from some insignifcant elective dynasty who went primo (the Belmores).
Meanwhile, though, ser Eustace is long dead, and not all his descendants must necessarily be sure Daeron II, whose agnatic descendants live on; ironically through a legitimized bastard of Maekar. The game has seen inheritance going between the Blackfyres and Daeron Targs. In fact, even Calla (daughter to DB1, wife to Bittersteel) inherited Dragonstone from… Bloodraven, who got it as a grant from Rhaegel. The Targs were deposed, entire kingdoms were released, there was long an independent Reach under empire-tier Tyrells and later Oakhearts, eventually the IT went back together, with the crown alternating between Daeron Targs and the Blackfyres, sometimes as heirs to one another. And then both lines lost it until I regained it as a self-styled Targ heir. The 'real' condition I met to fabricate the claim was having 60% of the IT's levy after a lifetime of construction works, so that was my claim, like Robert's hammer.
And for the record I'm not even sure there exist any unbroken male Targ lines at all at the moment, so the Baratheons — with Orys being represented as a legit bastard — may well be Aegon I's heirs in pure Salic terms.
In the Reach itself, my Osgreys were patrilineally Oakhearts (thus from Garth the Gardener's junior line) until I regained the patriliny by matrimarrying the senior male descendant who changed dynasty to Celtigar and then Capalde or something (in Andalos, eventually). And the Oakhearts had replaced a bad(?) Tyrell and held for a while. But obviously the Tyrells were the guys whom Aegon had put in place, so my Osgreys kinda look bad taking that away / benefiting from their fall. And now they don't have patrilineal descent from Garth the Gardener. There are superior claimants to that throne, like almost everybody else in the Reach, probably even the Starks (trough Bran the Builder) and certainly their Manderly vassals — through the older Gardener line via Garth X's elder of two daughters, no sons. The Tyrells, in addition to their appointment by Aegon I, also currently have the senior descent of the last Gardener king, through the Florents. But there are also all the Beesburies, Fossoways, Rowans, Hightowers even. And patrilineal Oakhearts still exist too. So the Osgreys don't really look like the best candidates for Reach LP/king.
This is making me think. I see myself at crossroads now. I could:
- Take the IT and limit myself to the Crownlands as the Blackfyre heir, granting the Reach back to the Tyrells (or to House Manderly) for some poetic/historical justice, after granting heavily upgraded Coldmoat + Standfast (d_Northmarch) to a normal Oakheart (as they no longer have Oceanroad, having granted it to… the Tyrells).
- Keep the IT and grant the Reach at each time to my heir as a training kingdom (though there's a risk of losing it).
- Combine the IT + Crownlands + Reach for superior manpower and stability, with little to fear from factions. Later try and inherit the other realms or at least bloodlines, especially Tyrell, Manderly and Daeron II Targs. Even hand the realms out later but inherit them at some point so it could be said the IT has a superior blood right to each and every kingdom than its current LP.
- Variation: Keep the Reach as LP but grant Highgarden itself back to the Tyrells.
- Grant everybody independence outside the Crownlands, though probably this should include Duskendale, Rosby etc. by the same token. I can't retain King's Landing only, as that would basically mean getting conquered by a claimant right away.
- Keep Elective in the Iron Throne, while keeping the Reach as LP. Keep winning the elections and increasing my chances to do so but without changing the law to dynastic. Topple any other dynasty that tries to make the IT dynastic. Possibly use the Abolish Monarchy faction at some point.
RP-wise the last option seems to make some sense to reflect the various claims of the various Targ lines, Garth lines and even descendants of elective IT holders (Belmores, Darklyns and some more), as well as giving a shot to other LPs like the Martells or the Lannisters, who shouldn't always have to be subjects just because they have no Garth or Targ line (not senior at least). However, in practical reality the game's probably going to disjoin a former LP from his former kingdom and make him focus on making the IT permanent in his dynasty while devolving the old kingdom to a son or brother.
Bonus question: What happens if you successfully abolish the monarch in the IT?
But let's say you don't really have a strong claim or a reason to identify with the Targs or the Iron Throne, perhaps you get the throne via elective succession or an outright faction demand. Or you depose and replace a particularly bad Targ. What do you do next? Hold it the way it was, that specific polity designed by the first Targs and their successors? Or gradually inherit and subsume/integrate the various kingdoms into your dynasty (or multidukes, military commands etc.) for a more typical, unified feudal polity? Or do you grant independence to all LPs, with the IT remaining as, let's say, an elective monarchy in the Crownlands alone?
Context:
In my current game, I played as ser Eustace Osgrey in the After the Spring start, receiving the Northmarch and ultimately inheriting the Reach through matrimarriage to a deposed Oakheart LP, who peacefully inherited his replacement (sister), after the Oakhearts replaced the Tyrells via faction demand. Meanwhile I've inherited the senior Blackfyre line in so far as this can even be done non-agnatically, along with a larger number of their other lines (pretty much all of DB1's kinds' senior lines of descent, also Bittersteel's and Bloodraven's, just probably not Daeron II's senior line of descent, though I'd have to check), so I could justify fabricating the claim on the IT and ultimately revolting to get it from some insignifcant elective dynasty who went primo (the Belmores).
Meanwhile, though, ser Eustace is long dead, and not all his descendants must necessarily be sure Daeron II, whose agnatic descendants live on; ironically through a legitimized bastard of Maekar. The game has seen inheritance going between the Blackfyres and Daeron Targs. In fact, even Calla (daughter to DB1, wife to Bittersteel) inherited Dragonstone from… Bloodraven, who got it as a grant from Rhaegel. The Targs were deposed, entire kingdoms were released, there was long an independent Reach under empire-tier Tyrells and later Oakhearts, eventually the IT went back together, with the crown alternating between Daeron Targs and the Blackfyres, sometimes as heirs to one another. And then both lines lost it until I regained it as a self-styled Targ heir. The 'real' condition I met to fabricate the claim was having 60% of the IT's levy after a lifetime of construction works, so that was my claim, like Robert's hammer.
And for the record I'm not even sure there exist any unbroken male Targ lines at all at the moment, so the Baratheons — with Orys being represented as a legit bastard — may well be Aegon I's heirs in pure Salic terms.
In the Reach itself, my Osgreys were patrilineally Oakhearts (thus from Garth the Gardener's junior line) until I regained the patriliny by matrimarrying the senior male descendant who changed dynasty to Celtigar and then Capalde or something (in Andalos, eventually). And the Oakhearts had replaced a bad(?) Tyrell and held for a while. But obviously the Tyrells were the guys whom Aegon had put in place, so my Osgreys kinda look bad taking that away / benefiting from their fall. And now they don't have patrilineal descent from Garth the Gardener. There are superior claimants to that throne, like almost everybody else in the Reach, probably even the Starks (trough Bran the Builder) and certainly their Manderly vassals — through the older Gardener line via Garth X's elder of two daughters, no sons. The Tyrells, in addition to their appointment by Aegon I, also currently have the senior descent of the last Gardener king, through the Florents. But there are also all the Beesburies, Fossoways, Rowans, Hightowers even. And patrilineal Oakhearts still exist too. So the Osgreys don't really look like the best candidates for Reach LP/king.
This is making me think. I see myself at crossroads now. I could:
- Take the IT and limit myself to the Crownlands as the Blackfyre heir, granting the Reach back to the Tyrells (or to House Manderly) for some poetic/historical justice, after granting heavily upgraded Coldmoat + Standfast (d_Northmarch) to a normal Oakheart (as they no longer have Oceanroad, having granted it to… the Tyrells).
- Keep the IT and grant the Reach at each time to my heir as a training kingdom (though there's a risk of losing it).
- Combine the IT + Crownlands + Reach for superior manpower and stability, with little to fear from factions. Later try and inherit the other realms or at least bloodlines, especially Tyrell, Manderly and Daeron II Targs. Even hand the realms out later but inherit them at some point so it could be said the IT has a superior blood right to each and every kingdom than its current LP.
- Variation: Keep the Reach as LP but grant Highgarden itself back to the Tyrells.
- Grant everybody independence outside the Crownlands, though probably this should include Duskendale, Rosby etc. by the same token. I can't retain King's Landing only, as that would basically mean getting conquered by a claimant right away.
- Keep Elective in the Iron Throne, while keeping the Reach as LP. Keep winning the elections and increasing my chances to do so but without changing the law to dynastic. Topple any other dynasty that tries to make the IT dynastic. Possibly use the Abolish Monarchy faction at some point.
RP-wise the last option seems to make some sense to reflect the various claims of the various Targ lines, Garth lines and even descendants of elective IT holders (Belmores, Darklyns and some more), as well as giving a shot to other LPs like the Martells or the Lannisters, who shouldn't always have to be subjects just because they have no Garth or Targ line (not senior at least). However, in practical reality the game's probably going to disjoin a former LP from his former kingdom and make him focus on making the IT permanent in his dynasty while devolving the old kingdom to a son or brother.
Bonus question: What happens if you successfully abolish the monarch in the IT?
