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Post by Elotyr on Aug 28, 2019 21:09:47 GMT
One thing that i was thinking lately was about our favorite green folk in the woods, the Children of Forest, and how they may not be a unity bunch as we think. So, we know that some of them may still live in Westeros on the Isle of Faces underground, like in Brynden's cave north of the wall., Howland Reed probrably thinked this, going in his quest to the Isle when young, and all that. The thing is those "clans" of children haven't got the same experiences since the pact and don't have the same "ghosts in their trees". The Children from the South live in the place that the pact was signed and then in next centuries see the humans screw them over, get their lands and fight among themselves probrably seeing them as "Assholes who put us in a one sided pact and still screwed us in not honoring it". While the Children in the North (of the Wall) have seem mankind being kind of alright, following the Old Gods, and having do deal with the Others as well, so they probrably see the humans as "alright people with a common enemy". This is interesting to me because of two of George RR Martin previous stories before ASOIAF: In Seven Times Never Kill Men and The Men of Greywater Station. In STNKM the Children of Forest Alien like species use of dreams and trickery to make humans kill themselves and have the survivors adopt their piramides (That are like Weirwoods) as their gods. Kind like the Children North of the Wall with the Wildlings right? And in TMOGS, like in Greywater Watch btw, as in Howland home. The Children of Forest Alien Fungus like species use of visions of humans own faith and trickery to make them kill each other, this time not keeping survivors. What makes me a bit suspicious of all religious visions happening in Westeros during ASOIAF. So alright what this can mean? Well if we go with Preston Jacobs idea of the Wall blocking mental comunications, this two groups wouldn't be able to communicate. However they still could pass part of their "Songs" to each others by wargs and greenseer who cross over the wall, like in Brynden Jojen and Bran, and maybe try to influence each others like that. But maybe they don't want to be influenced by each others Song to much, as in someone who question and don't give blind trust is alright ith the Northen Children, like Bran and Brynden, but someone who gives the South Ones visions full faith, as Jojen, are better as paste... But yeah, do you people have some toughs about this? I'm would be happy to hear about them!  |
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Post by lordumber93 on Aug 28, 2019 23:16:49 GMT
If the Black River under Bryndens cave is an underground ocean(In a sense) and extends to the cave systems of southern westeros and braavos' caves under the House of Black and White, it defeats Jacobs argument of the wall blocking their ability as they'd simply travel freely(like leaf is known to have done).
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Post by Elotyr on Aug 28, 2019 23:35:09 GMT
If the Black River under Bryndens cave is an underground ocean(In a sense) and extends to the cave systems of southern westeros and braavos' caves under the House of Black and White, it defeats Jacobs argument of the wall blocking their ability as they'd simply travel freely(like leaf is known to have done). Yes but the undergound ocean is a BIG if to me, and what we get from Leaf is that she walked the world of men in her 200 years life. That could mean she just meet the wildlings or passed some time in the north, south of the wall, the Weirwood gate would be a good way to get in and out for a Children not needing something like Gorne's way for this. Even if she got to the Isle of faces could be still considered a alternative way of comunication because of the wall hindering they talking in dreams. |
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Post by lordumber93 on Aug 28, 2019 23:48:20 GMT
Underground lakes and rivers are fairly common in real life, but I agree, it's a stretch. They've lived beyond the wall for centuries though, for leaf to say that to someone south of the wall is almost indicating she's gone South(maybe she's how Howland made it to the isle?). Not a fact, but it indicates it in a way. And if the river extends to at least Winterfell, that's all she really needs and connects the two black waters that we see in westeros.
We know the Weirwood net is more like a fungus than tree roots, and fungi are exceptionally hard to inhibit without getting the core. If the isle is the core, then that "clan" as you put it would have the most knowledge and reason to help those south. While those North would be the bitter ones, trying to hinder the humans.
But I'm not part of the theory that the children are the enemy. Displaced, yeah. But they're old and have essentially all of time at their fingertips, so they'd see their folly in trying to get revenge.
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Post by Elotyr on Aug 29, 2019 0:15:13 GMT
Well i kind really behind the children being antagonist of mankind in westeros, not life itself, but mankind, or at least Andal kind. Not wanting really revenge, but a to get back to the old ways without the mankind taking down the trees hunting the animals and killing each other in the fields. After all Westeros is their land.
Besides in almost everything George written before the native nature folk is against man coming in and colonazing things over, and if they lose in the end they find another ways to screw humans over, i just saying that probrably in his last series, lets be real he may not even finish it, he would try to hammer that home as well.
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Post by lordumber93 on Aug 31, 2019 19:50:07 GMT
I'm not disagreeing with his prior works. That point can't be argued really without it just being contrarian in nature. I see this series in particular more based on nature than "native vs non native". The children are pre-indo European folks, worshippers of nature. The first men are the first waves of indo European pagans who merged with them, then the andals are those zealous Christian's that destroyed paganism. The long summers are medieval warm periods, the winters are ice ages. Everything is skewed and "off balance"(what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider). Nobody is right, and nobody is wrong. Everyone's trying to survive in their own ways and it's the structure of nature that only the best survive.
The children are expressing their dying gasp, not their second wind, and they're realizing it, that's why they're not against humans anymore, they just want to enlighten them before their hubris kills them.
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Post by Elotyr on Aug 31, 2019 21:13:37 GMT
You have a point and i'm suspect that was probrably the way that some or most of them thinked for a long time, but the thing is... Bran was added to the equation.
Lets put ourselves in their place, we would have a society of praticaly immortal folks that get to live in our god trees when our bodys die and pass to us their wisdom... Then a bunch of assholes invade, kill a lot of us, burn our trees and the souls, minds and memories of our ancestors with them. Then after a lot of war we make a pact, we get the deepwoods, they screw us after and taken even that, pass some centuries are just a bunch of us left with bodies and some of our hearth trees south of the wall. Alright, other Long Night is coming, we probably not gonna make it, so better try to pass what we can to those human assholes so they don't kill themselves before getting in our trees and hope those at least survive so our knowledge and souls don't get lost too... Then Bran comes along.
A little aside, i say Bran is a game changer when come to this because of "A Song for Lya" where a alien fungus hive mind that is a good to people in his planet, when the thing absorb a telepathic it gets their power added to itself. Now if this applies also to ASOIAF... Feck.
Lets say we are in this situation, and we could put our hands in this child that can seize the skin of other humans, add him to our hive mind and take his power, at this point we're not just facing our the dying gasp and having the only hope that those human fuck ups don't kill themselves and burn our trees in their hubris as the only option right? Thanks the Seven Bran is far away from them righ... Shit.
So yeah, if the Children think as humans do, people of Westeros should maybe brace themselves for the ~Invasion of Body Snatchers~
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Post by lordumber93 on Sept 1, 2019 11:57:43 GMT
Lmfao, I didn't expect a body snatcher reference. That's a view I didn't consider. It's possible. If that's the case, then that's why there's stories like Brandon The Bloody Blade and others who slew the children. But that could also be the lying andals changing history to fit the "all magic is evil" narrative. As of now, Bloodraven and Bran are the only ones who know the actual truth to history. Which is why I love theories
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Post by lordumber93 on Sept 1, 2019 12:02:13 GMT
I think though, the andals were the children's second wind, they expressed it by actually getting the first men to wage war instead of just accepting them. At least the more staunch to tradition (at the time), while others failed to let them influence them(the Gardeners, Lannisters, etc). So now, it's either we give them the power we've hidden, or the entire world dies. They're beings of nature. Is revenge as important as saving the world?
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Post by Elotyr on Sept 1, 2019 12:49:03 GMT
I think though, the andals were the children's second wind, they expressed it by actually getting the first men to wage war instead of just accepting them. At least the more staunch to tradition (at the time), while others failed to let them influence them(the Gardeners, Lannisters, etc). So now, it's either we give them the power we've hidden, or the entire world dies. They're beings of nature. Is revenge as important as saving the world? The thing is, would help the humans help the world? So first lets disregard the GoT TvShow look at this alright? Killing a "Master White Walker" = Kill all of them and stoping the long night, is such a fecking stupid cliche i can't even now believe they went with that. So first, are the Others responsible for the Long Night or is Long Night just the reason they are coming south? I personally think is the second, they just know that a "Ice Age" like period is coming and decided to expand their territory. So defeating them isn't really that important to human survival. Adapting and geting to bellow ground in "medieval bunkers" is, like "Dark, Dark Were the Tunnels" for example, and when we think about it the Children already kind of did that, but they don't seem to be trying to give this knowledge to humans. I just saying, maybe the answer is bang the Others to get their cold resistance and ability to survive in this new age, rather than try to kill them and lose time and lives in a useless war. |
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Post by lordumber93 on Sept 4, 2019 19:59:49 GMT
I think though, the andals were the children's second wind, they expressed it by actually getting the first men to wage war instead of just accepting them. At least the more staunch to tradition (at the time), while others failed to let them influence them(the Gardeners, Lannisters, etc). So now, it's either we give them the power we've hidden, or the entire world dies. They're beings of nature. Is revenge as important as saving the world? The thing is, would help the humans help the world? So first lets disregard the GoT TvShow look at this alright? Killing a "Master White Walker" = Kill all of them and stoping the long night, is such a fecking stupid cliche i can't even now believe they went with that. So first, are the Others responsible for the Long Night or is Long Night just the reason they are coming south? I personally think is the second, they just know that a "Ice Age" like period is coming and decided to expand their territory. So defeating them isn't really that important to human survival. Adapting and geting to bellow ground in "medieval bunkers" is, like "Dark, Dark Were the Tunnels" for example, and when we think about it the Children already kind of did that, but they don't seem to be trying to give this knowledge to humans. I just saying, maybe the answer is bang the Others to get their cold resistance and ability to survive in this new age, rather than try to kill them and lose time and lives in a useless war. Okay, here's a selfish reason then: Saving the first men saves the Weirwood net. It saves their ancestors. If you're willing to wage war for those trees, you're willing to die for them to. And who else would keep them but the first men? I agree, it is a stupid cliche. That's why I theorize that you must not stop them without a Stark replacing them. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Which might be an aptly named place where the first long night ended. If the Other King is a Stark(Brandon of the Bloody Blade), then a Stark must replace him(Bran the Builders father), and a Stark must remain at Winterfell(Bran the Builder). If the Stark's die, nobody can replace them and the world burns from a never ending summer. If they win, it's an ice age. |
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Post by Elotyr on Sept 4, 2019 21:03:30 GMT
The thing is, would help the humans help the world? So first lets disregard the GoT TvShow look at this alright? Killing a "Master White Walker" = Kill all of them and stoping the long night, is such a fecking stupid cliche i can't even now believe they went with that. So first, are the Others responsible for the Long Night or is Long Night just the reason they are coming south? I personally think is the second, they just know that a "Ice Age" like period is coming and decided to expand their territory. So defeating them isn't really that important to human survival. Adapting and geting to bellow ground in "medieval bunkers" is, like "Dark, Dark Were the Tunnels" for example, and when we think about it the Children already kind of did that, but they don't seem to be trying to give this knowledge to humans. I just saying, maybe the answer is bang the Others to get their cold resistance and ability to survive in this new age, rather than try to kill them and lose time and lives in a useless war. Okay, here's a selfish reason then: Saving the first men saves the Weirwood net. It saves their ancestors. If you're willing to wage war for those trees, you're willing to die for them to. And who else would keep them but the first men? I agree, it is a stupid cliche. That's why I theorize that you must not stop them without a Stark replacing them. There must always be a Stark in Winterfell. Which might be an aptly named place where the first long night ended. If the Other King is a Stark(Brandon of the Bloody Blade), then a Stark must replace him(Bran the Builders father), and a Stark must remain at Winterfell(Bran the Builder). If the Stark's die, nobody can replace them and the world burns from a never ending summer. If they win, it's an ice age. Yeah i can totally buy the Children trying to set the First Men as the humankind main power in Westeros, i think actually that is what the children in the Isle of Faces are trying to do with the Faith Militant actually, giving visions and spiritual awakenings to the Faith of the Seven Fallowers, make then a bunch of religions fanatics, kill themselves and the Andal lords in a holy war with the Rhllor followers. Then the North with the Old Gods can kind of take over during the winter. About the Stark in Winterfell, yes that makes some sense, specially when we think about Ice, if i'm not mistaken the Valyrian steel one was the second blade to carry the name so maybe the first was one from the Others made of legit ice? Come on, is the Starks, we can't expect them to be creative  |
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Post by lordumber93 on Sept 5, 2019 15:32:34 GMT
That makes a lot of sense. I hadn't thought of that.
Well, there's a theory that Lady Forlorn is the original Ice. Since it's the only blade referred to as Dragonsteel and The Hungry Wolf did lose his sword in andalos. Go watch Order of the Greenhand on YT, love their theories and it's where I get some of mine from lol
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Post by Elotyr on Sept 5, 2019 17:12:13 GMT
Yeah i'm like that with Preston Jacobs lol
But the think is when watched some of their videos i ended up getting a bit pissed with the way the present their theories and tried to dished solid ones to their make sense. Like the video about Shae, they went in like a whole segment trying to prove that "Alleras is not Sarella" to make their Shae is Sarella make sense, but their whole point boiled to come to "There is no way that Alleras is Sarella" was because people in the Citadel would notice he look like a girl... Disregarding that she is:
A: half Summer islander, so the femine traces could be put as traces from that people, and B: Jaime is said to look a lot like Cersei, but all we get from that is that the dude is considered beautiful. So by that reference Alleras could just be considered as beautiful dude.
And they whole prophecie focus also puts me back, but i have to say, i enjoy their more humor focused ones like "Why Catelyn Sucks" even if the Tully is one of my favorite characters in the first books XD
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Post by lordumber93 on Sept 5, 2019 19:12:05 GMT
Preston's too... serious for me. Everything is genetic with him and it irks me because the magical elements are subtly put into the universe and if it's genetics, that's not subtle at all. That's encompassing the make up of ethnicities.
I'm mainly just a fan of their Ned+Ashara videos and why Rhaegar sucks ones. They were the first people to agree with me on Jon being a true born son of Ned while Robb and everyone are the bastards lol. That earned them a place in my heart 😂😂
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