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Post by caeserion on Aug 4, 2019 12:21:13 GMT
So I usually play during or after the Conquest, this issue may persist in later bookmarks too but Idk for sure. Anyway, the Starks have too many vassals. Torrhen Stark usually has a vassal limit of 26 but has 28 vassals which means he ends up giving one or two of the Mountain Clans to the Umbers and gives one of the Stony Shore vassals to the Ryswells. This wasn't an issue in earlier versions because he would make one of his sons the duke of the Stony Shore from Sea Dragon Point, bringing him down to 25 (also in later starts the Starks don't control the New Gift). The only real fix for this is to give the Starks some artifact that gives them a bonus to vassal limit with a temporary one being just buffing Torrhen's stats.
Another issue is that Houses Karstark, Umber, and Bolton each control either 2 or 3 counties directly. This makes them uber powerful, especially if you are controlling one of them rather than the AI. Can we get some random vassal houses like how House Moss was created for Sea Dragon Point?
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Post by rufff1 on Aug 4, 2019 12:33:00 GMT
I just move House Moss to Eastmelt as vassals of the Karstarks tbh - it fixes both problems
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Post by lordumber93 on Aug 4, 2019 15:39:33 GMT
Create the high lordship of the mountain clans. Gains you 200 prestige and fixes your vassal limit issue.
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Post by Paxter Redwyne on Aug 4, 2019 19:29:11 GMT
Can we get some random vassal houses like how House Moss was created for Sea Dragon Point?
House Moss is canon, it simply wasn't in previous versions of the mod. Sadly there aren't any other canon houses that could be added to the North. |
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Post by caeserion on Aug 5, 2019 11:45:42 GMT
I just move House Moss to Eastmelt as vassals of the Karstarks tbh - it fixes both problems Only for the Karstarks. The Boltons and Umbers remain stronger. Create the high lordship of the mountain clans. Gains you 200 prestige and fixes your vassal limit issue. Cannot create High Lordships if you don't own land in in it, which the Starks don't. Can we get some random vassal houses like how House Moss was created for Sea Dragon Point?
House Moss is canon, it simply wasn't in previous versions of the mod. Sadly there aren't any other canon houses that could be added to the North. Ah my mistake. Does the dev team have any plans of adding non-canon houses? |
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Post by stale on Aug 5, 2019 12:42:45 GMT
I just move House Moss to Eastmelt as vassals of the Karstarks tbh - it fixes both problems Only for the Karstarks. The Boltons and Umbers remain stronger. Create the high lordship of the mountain clans. Gains you 200 prestige and fixes your vassal limit issue. Cannot create High Lordships if you don't own land in in it, which the Starks don't. House Moss is canon, it simply wasn't in previous versions of the mod. Sadly there aren't any other canon houses that could be added to the North. Ah my mistake. Does the dev team have any plans of adding non-canon houses? You could always move around families that are barons, like the Pooles? |
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Post by Karl on Aug 5, 2019 16:13:39 GMT
Create the high lordship of the mountain clans. Gains you 200 prestige and fixes your vassal limit issue. Cannot create High Lordships if you don't own land in in it, which the Starks don't. There's a game rule which controls whether creating titles requires directly holding land in them or not, so it would depend on how the game rule was set. One could also just console it upon game start.  |
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Post by Paxter Redwyne on Aug 6, 2019 9:40:25 GMT
House Moss is canon, it simply wasn't in previous versions of the mod. Sadly there aren't any other canon houses that could be added to the North. Ah my mistake. Does the dev team have any plans of adding non-canon houses? I don't see the point of adding non-canon houses in Westeros, if GRRM ever adds new houses, they will be need to be removed anyway. |
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Post by rufff1 on Aug 6, 2019 10:40:26 GMT
Ah my mistake. Does the dev team have any plans of adding non-canon houses? I don't see the point of adding non-canon houses in Westeros, if GRRM ever adds new houses, they will be need to be removed anyway. Might I suggest House Long? They are canon (having ruled over the Wolf's Den for a time) and currently only exist as a courtier in Barrowton and his two sons - they could be given a more complete family tree and the lordship of Last River under the Umbers, House Moss could be moved to Eastmelt under the Karstarks, Sea Dragon Point could be returned to the Starks (letting them have a traditional heir title again), and the Boltons can retain Ethering to reflect their position as the biggest threat to Stark power by having two directly held counties. This would solve everything the OP has mentioned imo. |
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Post by Paxter Redwyne on Aug 6, 2019 13:13:58 GMT
I don't see the point of adding non-canon houses in Westeros, if GRRM ever adds new houses, they will be need to be removed anyway. Might I suggest House Long? They are canon (having ruled over the Wolf's Den for a time) and currently only exist as a courtier in Barrowton and his two sons - they could be given a more complete family tree and the lordship of Last River under the Umbers, House Moss could be moved to Eastmelt under the Karstarks, Sea Dragon Point could be returned to the Starks (letting them have a traditional heir title again), and the Boltons can retain Ethering to reflect their position as the biggest threat to Stark power by having two directly held counties. This would solve everything the OP has mentioned imo. We have been thinking about making House Long barons somewhere in the White Harbor area since they probably held lands adjacent to the Wolf's Den. I think placing them on the other side of the realm wouldn't make much sense. Sea Dragon Point wasn't always traditional Stark county, it was given to Starks after Condons have been moved from there to barony under Cerwyns (the reason for this was that Condon served under Lord Cerwyn). |
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Post by rufff1 on Aug 6, 2019 14:50:05 GMT
Might I suggest House Long? They are canon (having ruled over the Wolf's Den for a time) and currently only exist as a courtier in Barrowton and his two sons - they could be given a more complete family tree and the lordship of Last River under the Umbers, House Moss could be moved to Eastmelt under the Karstarks, Sea Dragon Point could be returned to the Starks (letting them have a traditional heir title again), and the Boltons can retain Ethering to reflect their position as the biggest threat to Stark power by having two directly held counties. This would solve everything the OP has mentioned imo. We have been thinking about making House Long barons somewhere in the White Harbor area since they probably held lands adjacent to the Wolf's Den. I think placing them on the other side of the realm wouldn't make much sense. Sea Dragon Point wasn't always traditional Stark county, it was given to Starks after Condons have been moved from there to barony under Cerwyns (the reason for this was that Condon served under Lord Cerwyn). Fair enough on the Longs - although you guys have put houses that held the Wolf's Den elsewhere in the North - House Holt and House Slate being examples. I'd also argue that the lore tells us that the Starks took Sea Dragon Point from the Warg King but we have no record of another house holding it/residing on it despite seeing the ironborn raiding around it. Also giving the Starks a second province is fairly in line with the other great houses - the Arryns have Midlor Point until its gifted to the Baelishes in later bookmarks, ditto with the Baratheons and the Rainwood, the Martells have Ghaston Grey, the Tullys have Fieldstone after the Strongs die out etc. There are definitely merits to having at least some of the flexibility of a second province available to them |
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Post by Paxter Redwyne on Aug 6, 2019 15:11:41 GMT
We have been thinking about making House Long barons somewhere in the White Harbor area since they probably held lands adjacent to the Wolf's Den. I think placing them on the other side of the realm wouldn't make much sense. Sea Dragon Point wasn't always traditional Stark county, it was given to Starks after Condons have been moved from there to barony under Cerwyns (the reason for this was that Condon served under Lord Cerwyn). Fair enough on the Longs - although you guys have put houses that held the Wolf's Den elsewhere in the North - House Holt and House Slate being examples. This is about to change in the next update. I really doubt that Starks haven't given it to someone else in the span of those few thousands years. |
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Post by lynx54321 on Aug 6, 2019 17:41:19 GMT
I think Poole and Condon and maybe even Hosten Trent at Moat Cailin could be raised from Barons to Lords. There are already Lordships for Cassell and Mollen. I'd have the structure in the North with the High lords listed with their provinces and the houses holding each. A few provinces would need shuffled about:
Stark
Winterfell - Stark
Manderly
White Harbour - Manderly
White Knife - Manderly
Oldcastle - Locke
Whitford - Waterford
Sheepshead Hills - Woolfield
Bolton
Dreadfort - Bolton
Ethering - Bolton
Highpoint - Whitehill
Overton - Overton
Karstark
Karhold - Karstark
Weeping Bay - Lightfoot
Eastmelt - Moss
Umber
Last Hearth - Umber
Seal Shore Umber
Last River - Wells
Lonely Hills - Lake
Glover
Deepwood Motte - Glover
Ironrath - Forrester
Acorn Grove - Bole
Kings Grove - Branch
Wolfswood - Woods
Tallhart
Torrhens Square - Tallhart
Dawnforest - Mollen
Kings Course - Cassell
Ryswell
The Rills - Ryswell
Rillswater Crossing - Glenmore
Withered Heath - Ironsmith
Dustin
Barrowton - Dustin
Fever - Dustin
Goldgrass - Stout
Cerwyn
Castle Cerwyn - Cerwyn
The Eagle Tower - Condon
Coldstream - Poole
Hornwood
Hornwood - Hornwood
Branchhead (new province) - Ashwood
Widows Watch - Flint
Sea Dragon Point - Stark
Blackpool - Slate
Stony Shore - Fisher
Moat Cailin - Trent
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Post by rufff1 on Aug 6, 2019 17:52:57 GMT
I think Poole and Condon and maybe even Hosten Trent at Moat Cailin could be raised from Barons to Lords. There are already Lordships for Cassell and Mollen. I'd have the structure in the North with the High lords listed with their provinces and the houses holding each. A few provinces would need shuffled about: Stark Winterfell - Stark Manderly White Harbour - Manderly White Knife - Manderly Oldcastle - Locke Whitford - Waterford Sheepshead Hills - Woolfield Bolton Dreadfort - Bolton Ethering - Bolton Highpoint - Whitehill Overton - Overton Karstark Karhold - Karstark Weeping Bay - Lightfoot Eastmelt - Moss Umber Last Hearth - Umber Seal Shore Umber Last River - Wells Lonely Hills - Lake Glover Deepwood Motte - Glover Ironrath - Forrester Acorn Grove - Bole Kings Grove - Branch Wolfswood - Woods Tallhart Torrhens Square - Tallhart Dawnforest - Mollen Kings Course - Cassell Ryswell The Rills - Ryswell Rillswater Crossing - Glenmore Withered Heath - Ironsmith Dustin Barrowton - Dustin Fever - Dustin Goldgrass - Stout Cerwyn Castle Cerwyn - Cerwyn The Eagle Tower - Condon Coldstream - Poole Hornwood Hornwood - Hornwood Branchhead (new province) - Ashwood Widows Watch - Flint Sea Dragon Point - Stark Blackpool - Slate Stony Shore - Fisher Moat Cailin - Trent You know House Trent is entirely non canon right? |
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Post by rufff1 on Aug 6, 2019 20:56:27 GMT
Fair enough on the Longs - although you guys have put houses that held the Wolf's Den elsewhere in the North - House Holt and House Slate being examples. This is about to change in the next update. I really doubt that Starks haven't given it to someone else in the span of those few thousands years. Moving all the houses that have ever held the Wolf's Den to the immediate vicinity it seems tenuous - yes some of them are in that region Lockes, Ashwoods and if you assume that the Flints who held it were from Widows Watch the Flints, but given that the lines that held the castle seem to have died out (how else did they all loose the Wolf's Den after all?) it seems that they were cadet branches of those houses granted the Wolf's Den and would not have to be from right next to the Wolf's Den - after all Karhold is not particularly near to Winterfell. |
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