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Post by lynx54321 on Jul 9, 2019 7:10:30 GMT
lynx54321 - Oh, I haven't really got any new ideas just yet - aside from a vague one to tie an event to that Lordship of the Gift, so that the player can attempt to replicate Ned Stark's plan of settling it with Northern lords to bolster the Night's Watch - but I am curious to see ways that the base setup can be made more book accurate...has anyone made a list yet of what each house can field? If you search for "strength of the northern houses" there has been a fair few debates. Most seem to come out similarly with the 5 most powerful houses of the North: Stark 5-6k Manderly 5-6k with high proportion of heavy cavalry Bolton 4-5k Karstark 3.5k Umber 3k The next tier of houses similar levels: Glover 2.5k Hornwood 2k Tallhart 2k Cerwyn 2k Dustin 2.5k Russell 2k Reed 2k Mormont 1k Flints Finger 1.5k Flints of Widows Watch 1.5k Mountain Clans 3.5k (combined) That gets you to around the 45k that GRRM states the North can field. |
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Post by Almaron on Jul 9, 2019 8:39:59 GMT
Hmm, that's pretty cool! Are there similar estimates and breakdowns for the rest of Westeros? I could apply that to the maps I've drawn and see whether I've made certain areas too big or too small...
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Post by adelhaldane on Jul 9, 2019 10:44:25 GMT
adelhaldane - Drifting's when a de jure duchy or kingdom switches allegiances to another realm after a certain amount of time being ruled by said realm...so hypothetically, one could play as the Kingdom of the Rock, invade Seagard and hold it for a hundred years, and then it'd stop being considered part of the Riverlands. At the moment, with Westeros being a united realm in most start dates, it's admittedly not as prevalent as in vanilla, but at some point down the line I would like to work back in the original version of this mod's de jure kingdom setup for the earlier dates, as that WOULD suit that better.  Anyway, I do see your point about Oldstones having access to a port...perhaps there could be an event linked to the rebuilding of Oldstones which updates the de jure map to give it two neighbouring provinces? Oh, and yes; what you'll need to do is copy "306 - Summerhall.txt" from the base game's history/provinces folder into my mod, and then change the line from "max_settlements = 2" to "7". japster - It's mainly based on observation of the maps that attempt to depict the terrain in this area; the marshes of the Neck don't seem to extend quite that far west, but there is a large forest in the way which I assume is difficult to travel through. It didn't feel right to make the whole area impassable (especially since the Crannogmen themselves likely have no trouble going through the area), so I made the Flint Cliffs cover the area, so that an army could sort of skirt around the Neck to get to Flint's Finger...but it'd still be a slower option than taking the Kingsroad and Moat Cailin. Admittedly, one of my sources didn't show a road going this way - oddly, on the map in World of Ice and Fire, a road can be seen connecting Flint's Finger to Greywater Watch, yet that can't be entirely right because, as you noted, the place is meant to be super hard to find - but again, it didn't feel right to block it off...CKII and GOT don't always line up with one another. lynx54321 - Oh, I haven't really got any new ideas just yet - aside from a vague one to tie an event to that Lordship of the Gift, so that the player can attempt to replicate Ned Stark's plan of settling it with Northern lords to bolster the Night's Watch - but I am curious to see ways that the base setup can be made more book accurate...has anyone made a list yet of what each house can field? While I remember, there are a few areas where I would have liked to add an extra province or two...most notably, the area near Harrenhal, Harroway, and Darry, as the de jure setup at the moment doesn't quite reflect what we know about the area. To elaborate, when House Harroway was extinguished, it's mentioned that their lands were divided; Harrenhal went to the newly-created House Towers, while Harroway was given to the existing House Butterwell, which we know holds lands on the east side of the God's Eye, suggesting that they might have controlled the land between the two (which would also be a useful addition for the Second Blackfyre Rebellion, as in the aftermath Lord Butterwell lost some of his lands; ergo, this hypothetical new province). On top of that, Darry; conflicting sources place it either east of Harrenhal and Harroway, or north of the Trident. Interestingly, one source notes that Darry once controlled the Inn at the Crossroads, which would suggest that there should be another province with a crossing alongside Harroway for them to hold (which would also be handy as then Darry could also control the land north of the Trident in earlier dates, giving us a High Lordship for the otherwise empty area*, and then be stripped of it following Robert's Rebellion). *Although as you've no doubt noticed, I did shift House Charlton to the northernmost part; they're a vassal of House Frey in the present day, but texts indicate that House Frey is a newer house, and that House Charlton is a far older house that once vied for control of the Riverlands with some of the more powerful houses; since there's not much space for them in the west, I hypothesise that they might have controlled the Green Fork and fallen from grace... thanks for the reply and info. you mean the province of oldstones would become bigger and incorporate 2 neighbouring coastal provinces? or that the 2 neighbouring provinces would become dejure part of the duchy of oldstones? if its the former, then that would be cool, as a regional traditional power i would expect the county to be bigger. if its the latter, then its up to u, whatever you think is best. regarding provinces, it doesnt work. still stays as 2 holdings. i think there may be a bug. |
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Post by adelhaldane on Jul 9, 2019 11:08:53 GMT
On the topic of the aforementioned de jure Kingdom setup, for people who didn't see the original mod, here's what they looked like in that; sta.sh/0amyjcttkn0sta.sh/0147vkv2a3fmThese came about after a fair bit of research, combining things such as known petty Kingdoms (or the rulers of said Kingdoms, if the name of their realms wasn't certain), titles used by rulers prior to Aegon's Conquest, and general speculation. Some of it I'm still happy with (the Vale and Dorne, for instance), but other areas I'm a bit iffy on, and it might take a while to develop a suitable setup, especially considering that the map has changed a fair bit since this version of the mod. To try and sum things up; *The Vale would be divided into at least three de jure Kingdoms; the Kingdom of the Fingers (a title used by several early Andal conquerors), the Kingdom of the Mountains and the Kingdom of the Vale (both titles used by House Arryn prior to Aegon's Conquest). It could also be possible to create a fourth 'Kingdom of the Bite' incorporating the Three Sisters, the Paps, and Pebble, although this would require the redrawing of the lordship borders. *Dorne would be divided into three de jure Kingdoms; the Kingdom of the Red Mountains, the Kingdom of the Brimstone, and the Kingdom of the Greenblood. All three of these titles were used by various rulers prior to the arrival of Nymeria, but the Kingdoms were also drawn to take into account the subdivisions of the Dornish culture; the Red Mountains for 'Stony' Dornish, the Brimstone for 'Sandy' Dornish, and the Greenblood for 'Salty' and 'Sandy' Dornish. *The Iron Islands could potentially be divided into anywhere between eight de jure Kingdoms or one, depending on whether each island is made an independent Kingdom (reflecting how the Islands were each independent Kingdoms before being united under one ruler) or not. *The Westerlands would probably be divided into four de jure Kingdoms; the Kingdom of the Rock along the southern coast (the historic title of the rulers of Casterly Rock), the Kingdom of the Banefort along the northern coast (based on the Hooded King of the Banefort being the only known king from this area; all other houses are either Andal ones or houses whose leaders weren't described as Kings), the Kingdom of the Hills along the River Road, and another Kingdom (without a name as of yet) along the Gold Road. The last two Kingdoms are based on an observation that most of the known First Men Westerman houses seem to be located along the western coast, while the Andal houses are in the east, with texts noting that the Kings of the Rock used these houses to expand their control over new lands...ergo, the eastern lands might have been part of the Riverlands or Reach, and interestingly, older rulers of the Riverlands used the title 'Kings of the River and Hills', and with 'Hill' being the go-to name for bastards in the Westerlands (as well as the fact that the Westerlands are particularly hilly), I'd say this is a valid name for at least one Kingdom in this area... *The Riverlands would probably be divided into at least three de jure Kingdoms; the Kingdom of the God's Eye (a title used by the mythical 'Green King') in the southeast, the Kingdom of Wayfarer's Rest in the southwest (based on the description of House Vance as the most powerful of the Andal Kings, and the knowledge that Riverrun once fell under their jurisdiction), the Kingdom of the Trident in the north...however, this would make the Trident twice the size of most of the other Kingdoms mentioned thus far, so this isn't really ideal. Another option is potentially dividing up the Trident into three Kingdoms corresponding with the three forks of the Trident; Blackwood Vale and Stone Hedge within the Kingdom of the Red Fork, Oldstones and Seagard within the Kingdom of the Blue Fork, and the Twins within the Kingdom of the Green Fork, perhaps with the ability to replace all three with the 'Kingdom of the Trident' if one holds the titles. *The Reach is a tricky one; according to World of Ice and Fire, the area has four distinct divisions; Oldtown (9-12 provinces, depending on whether Brightwater Keep is included or not), the Arbor (1 Province) the Westmarch (5 provinces, 9 if Mandervale is included) and the Reach proper, the latter of which would need to be broken up into smaller Kingdoms for balancing purposes. A "Kingdom of the (Upper) Mander" or perhaps a "Kingdom of the Northmarch" seems an obvious choice for the northern parts, and the lands of Old Oak, Red Lake and Goldengrove (which all historically swore fealty to the Reach at the same time, and whose lands are referred to as 'Searoad Marches' in the 'A Game of Thrones' board game) could be grouped into another, although what name they'd use is unclear. *The Stormlands would probably be divided into at least three de jure Kingdoms; the Kingdom of the Eastmarch (the Dornish Marches, but given a name mirroring the Reach's 'Westmarch'), the Kingdom of the Rainwood and the Kingdom of the Storm, although it might also be worth including a "Kingdom of Tarth", given that the Arbor in the Reach is a similar size and its own Kingdom (plus this helps to ensure the Kingdoms don't get too cluttered compared to their neighbours. *The Crownlands would probably be divided into four de jure Kingdoms; the existing Kingdom of the Claw, the Kingdom of the Dusklands (a hypothetical title reflecting the historic importance of House Darklyn of Duskendale in this area), the Kingdom of the Blackwater (incorporating the Blackwater Rush, the Kingswood and Massey's Hook; areas all controlled by the Kings of the Storm at various points in time), and the Kingdom of Dragonstone. *The North is another tricky region, having perhaps the largest number of confirmed petty kingdoms out of any of the regions of Westeros. With the current province and Lordship setup, it looks like at least six de jure Kingdoms would work...the Kingdom of the Neck (including Greywater Watch and Flint's Finger), the Kingdom of the Wolfswood (including the Stony Shore and the Northern Mountains), the Kingdom of Winter (including all the land between Winterfell and the Barrowlands...ideally, these two would be rival de jure Kingdoms, given that the Barrow Kings of House Dustin were originally the most powerful of the northern houses, but there aren't really enough provinces to make this work), the Kingdom of the Dreadlands (the Dreadfort, Last Hearth and Karhold; again, ideally this would be split between the Dreadfort and Last Hearth, but there aren't enough provinces), the Kingdom of Skagos, and the Kingdom of the White Knife (not a known historic Kingdom, but added for balancing purposes and also corresponding with the lands given to House Manderly anyway). ...with that all said, I'm open to suggestions for the troublesome areas! is this your attempt at making a kind of "Petty Kingdoms" submod? if so kudos because its been needed. i tend to do that a lot but i do it manually. its a real headache. start off with shattered realms duchy. then start handing out kingdoms. i think i gave everyone that is known to be a king a kingdom title. if you can somehow pull this off you are a beast. i can send you screenshots of the different kingdoms i tend to put in. having said that im probably misreading what youre intending to do lol |
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Post by adelhaldane on Jul 9, 2019 12:38:00 GMT
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Post by japster on Jul 9, 2019 19:13:30 GMT
japster - It's mainly based on observation of the maps that attempt to depict the terrain in this area; the marshes of the Neck don't seem to extend quite that far west, but there is a large forest in the way which I assume is difficult to travel through. It didn't feel right to make the whole area impassable (especially since the Crannogmen themselves likely have no trouble going through the area), so I made the Flint Cliffs cover the area, so that an army could sort of skirt around the Neck to get to Flint's Finger...but it'd still be a slower option than taking the Kingsroad and Moat Cailin. Admittedly, one of my sources didn't show a road going this way - oddly, on the map in World of Ice and Fire, a road can be seen connecting Flint's Finger to Greywater Watch, yet that can't be entirely right because, as you noted, the place is meant to be super hard to find - but again, it didn't feel right to block it off...CKII and GOT don't always line up with one another. Hm, I see what you mean about the neck extending that far west. The issue is that Flint's fingers don't play a large role in the books (so far at least), so it's never come up whether they're accessible from the south. As for the crannogmen being able to pass through the Neck, you're moving pitched armies about on the CK2 map, not individuals, so while the neck isn't impassable to people in general, you can't march an army through it. In the same vein, in eu4 the Pyrenees wasteland is solid from the bay of Biscay to the Mediterranean, you can only cross on the coastal provinces. That's not to say the mountains are impassable to everyone, you just wouldn't be able to march an army through it. Ultimately, everyone says that Moat Calin, and by extension the Neck, is the key to the North, and act like there is no other way into the heart of the Kingdom by land. I see what you mean by the road between Flint's Fingers and Greywater Watch though, how exactly one would build a road to a floating castle is beyond me, but if you're going to make the Flint's Fingers accessible from the south, I would extend the impassable Neck wasteland up to the Fever, to keep the only land route going via Moat Calin. Of course, this is your mod, and you've done a great job, this is just my opinions. |
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Post by Almaron on Jul 9, 2019 23:59:54 GMT
adelhaldane - With regards to Oldstones, yeah, I was meaning that an event could shift two counties (probably from de jure Seagard, but perhaps one from the Trident, since taking one from the south would weaken Blackwood), representing a monarch restoring the title and going "Right, and a lordship such as this deserves certain lands!" As for Summerhall, well, I might be goofing; it's been a while since I did that sort of modding... Lastly, yep, that is the plan...of course, it'd probably work better in the eras of the Official Sub-Mods rather than the first start date, as by that point the Seven Kingdoms had consolidated themselves, but still, for now, it's nice to brainstorm this and figure out just where to go. Thanks for the pictures, BTW! I think you might have put a bit too many Kingdoms in the game, though...remember, independent Lordships can always be coded so they show up as 'Petty Kingdoms' instead, so you could have all those states holding ducal titles instead and only taking the King title once they've gobbled up enough land... I should probably make a visual aid for what I'm describing, though; I was going to post one originally, but there were too many areas I was stuck on to finish it...and then while typing this up, I resolved a few of them. japster - I see your point, but it still feels odd to me that the land along the coast wouldn't be navigable. I think the solution would be to make it that the Kingsroad route is the only real sensible option - I mean, there is already the modifier on the two provinces there, but if more provinces are added, they could be added to the west so that the AI has a much shorter route going the 'canonical' way. I see it as somewhat comparable to the situation along the Reach-Dorne border; most versions of the mod include impassable mountains along the western Red Mountains based on the descriptions of the Prince's Pass and the Boneway as being the two main routes for armies into Dorne...yet we have descriptions of Starfall guarding western Dorne (as well as Blackmont harassing the Reach in ancient times), Lands of Ice and Fire maps showing Horn Hill within the Red Mountains at the headwaters of the Torrentine, and road maps showing tracks traversing these routes. Considering Dorne's overall terrain, I'd say that there are indeed access points across the mountains, but they're not as strategically useful as the two main paths, which quickly cut through the mountains to the heart of Dorne, while the others waste time taking you on a longer route through the mountains and desert and past even MORE castles than the shorter routes...ergo, I see the Neck as being the same; there potentially is a path to Flint's Finger, but if you're trying to invade the North you're going to waste your time going that way.
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Post by Almaron on Jul 10, 2019 8:12:07 GMT
Alrighty, I've made a mockup of how the Hundred Kingdoms setup could look...altered slightly from the description from above, added some hypothetical names, and wound up with a few ugly borders because it's sticking to the de jure ducal setup in the rest of the game, but I suppose it's really just a sign that I need to redraw some borders here and there to suit setups like this.  Higher resolution is here; sta.sh/01dig5klczlm ...the source website's being annoying and refusing to load the larger version here properly. |
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Post by adelhaldane on Jul 10, 2019 12:09:05 GMT
adelhaldane - With regards to Oldstones, yeah, I was meaning that an event could shift two counties (probably from de jure Seagard, but perhaps one from the Trident, since taking one from the south would weaken Blackwood), representing a monarch restoring the title and going "Right, and a lordship such as this deserves certain lands!" As for Summerhall, well, I might be goofing; it's been a while since I did that sort of modding... Lastly, yep, that is the plan...of course, it'd probably work better in the eras of the Official Sub-Mods rather than the first start date, as by that point the Seven Kingdoms had consolidated themselves, but still, for now, it's nice to brainstorm this and figure out just where to go. Thanks for the pictures, BTW! I think you might have put a bit too many Kingdoms in the game, though...remember, independent Lordships can always be coded so they show up as 'Petty Kingdoms' instead, so you could have all those states holding ducal titles instead and only taking the King title once they've gobbled up enough land... I should probably make a visual aid for what I'm describing, though; I was going to post one originally, but there were too many areas I was stuck on to finish it...and then while typing this up, I resolved a few of them. japster - I see your point, but it still feels odd to me that the land along the coast wouldn't be navigable. I think the solution would be to make it that the Kingsroad route is the only real sensible option - I mean, there is already the modifier on the two provinces there, but if more provinces are added, they could be added to the west so that the AI has a much shorter route going the 'canonical' way. I see it as somewhat comparable to the situation along the Reach-Dorne border; most versions of the mod include impassable mountains along the western Red Mountains based on the descriptions of the Prince's Pass and the Boneway as being the two main routes for armies into Dorne...yet we have descriptions of Starfall guarding western Dorne (as well as Blackmont harassing the Reach in ancient times), Lands of Ice and Fire maps showing Horn Hill within the Red Mountains at the headwaters of the Torrentine, and road maps showing tracks traversing these routes. Considering Dorne's overall terrain, I'd say that there are indeed access points across the mountains, but they're not as strategically useful as the two main paths, which quickly cut through the mountains to the heart of Dorne, while the others waste time taking you on a longer route through the mountains and desert and past even MORE castles than the shorter routes...ergo, I see the Neck as being the same; there potentially is a path to Flint's Finger, but if you're trying to invade the North you're going to waste your time going that way. yeah i had to depower some kingdoms because they had way too many troops eg. when i gave wayfarers rest the same lands you did they had like 3-4 times the troops of any other riverking/lord. also i wanted to give the traditional powers of each region a slight advantage over the others so had to take away and create give and take from other kingdoms. but u seem like you have a better way of doing it. the only problem is if you go back to certain dates, there are a number of lordships missing. |
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Post by adelhaldane on Jul 10, 2019 16:16:33 GMT
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Post by thelastofhisname on Jul 10, 2019 16:45:11 GMT
cool
are there any plans of bringing Essos into the party?
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Post by gabec on Jul 10, 2019 17:41:36 GMT
Alrighty, I've made a mockup of how the Hundred Kingdoms setup could look...altered slightly from the description from above, added some hypothetical names, and wound up with a few ugly borders because it's sticking to the de jure ducal setup in the rest of the game, but I suppose it's really just a sign that I need to redraw some borders here and there to suit setups like this. Higher resolution is here; sta.sh/01dig5klczlm ...the source website's being annoying and refusing to load the larger version here properly. I disagree about the kingdom of the Red Mountains, we know that the House Dayne had its own independent kingdom and were not vassals of the Yronwoods. I would recommend the division between Kingdom of The Red Mountains and Kingdom of Redmarch . Suggestion for the Kingdom of Starfall/Red Mountains/Torrentine: High Hermitage, Blackmont, Starfall and the Elbow |
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Post by japster on Jul 10, 2019 18:45:52 GMT
japster - I see your point, but it still feels odd to me that the land along the coast wouldn't be navigable. I think the solution would be to make it that the Kingsroad route is the only real sensible option - I mean, there is already the modifier on the two provinces there, but if more provinces are added, they could be added to the west so that the AI has a much shorter route going the 'canonical' way. I see it as somewhat comparable to the situation along the Reach-Dorne border; most versions of the mod include impassable mountains along the western Red Mountains based on the descriptions of the Prince's Pass and the Boneway as being the two main routes for armies into Dorne...yet we have descriptions of Starfall guarding western Dorne (as well as Blackmont harassing the Reach in ancient times), Lands of Ice and Fire maps showing Horn Hill within the Red Mountains at the headwaters of the Torrentine, and road maps showing tracks traversing these routes. Considering Dorne's overall terrain, I'd say that there are indeed access points across the mountains, but they're not as strategically useful as the two main paths, which quickly cut through the mountains to the heart of Dorne, while the others waste time taking you on a longer route through the mountains and desert and past even MORE castles than the shorter routes...ergo, I see the Neck as being the same; there potentially is a path to Flint's Finger, but if you're trying to invade the North you're going to waste your time going that way. You can get salt marshes along coastal regions, which can be difficult to traverse, especially for an army, which would easily block any hopes of marching past the neck that way. The problem for me is that any route that is even possible to march through instantly becomes a much more sensible option to take, because it isn't a narrow road through hostile marshland, guarded by an impregnable fortress. Theon Stark held Moat Calin against basically all of Andaldom, the castle is stated to be impossible to take from the south, barring only circumstances where you have help from the crannogmen. If there was another route, someone would have taken it. As for the Reach-Dorne borders, looking at the Lands of Ice and Fire map, the Torrentine looks similar to Flint's Fingers, accessible from outside Dorne, but with no major route into the rest of Dorne, also, by harassing, I would take that to mean small raiding parties from Blackmont, which would be able to take the smaller paths that an army couldn't. But the rest of the situation isn't, the Boneway and Prince's Path aren't impregnable, armies have got through them, multiple times have armies marched into Dorne, it is a proven route. Moat Calin has never fallen, going the round about way isn't a waste of time because any route is better than one which requires you to take the Moat. It can't be besieged, because the castle will still be open to the north, the only way is to storm it, which is neigh impossible unless you outnumber the defenders by perhaps a ratio of 100,000 to one. |
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Post by Almaron on Jul 10, 2019 21:10:46 GMT
adelhaldane - Oh, I know; I just meant that I think most of those are better represented by independent duchies bearing the 'Petty Kingdom' label, otherwise the map would end up too divided to be enjoyable...I mean, half the game vanishes if it's possible to proclaim a Kingdom almost immediately and start gobbling up neighbours. thelastofhisname - Hmm, I'm not sure in what way I could tweak it? Aside from revamping Valyria a wee bit... gabec - That's true, but considering Dorne's size and the number of small Kingdoms in this area (the Kingdom of the Torrentine would be three provinces in size and thus super easy to form compared to its neighbours, not to mention that Blackmont is described as both independent and a Yronwood vassal at this point in time, so the state would be made up of two provinces in-game), I think it's better to draw the borders based on the major regions and ethnic groups, especially as this'd be better suited for a shattered world approach; Yronwood might not even have reached its maximum extent in such a game, so there'd be no fear of them starting with k_red_mountains...and then, even if they did, they DID claim to be High King of Dorne, so starting with that and the CB would be justified). japster - Hmm...okay, valid point. I'll need to have a think about this one...
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Post by lynx54321 on Jul 11, 2019 6:52:54 GMT
Are there any plans to add more provinces to the North? I think there is room for more in certain areas.
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