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Post by josella on Feb 16, 2019 15:45:52 GMT
So my first suggestion is a rather big change, but something I do feel has sufficient grounding: Why are R'hllor and the shadowbinders religion two completely different things? According to a SSM www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Gods_of_Westeros/ R'hllor is worshipped in Asshai, and through the series we see references to the religion originating in Asshai'i prophecies. Since being a shadowbinder seems to be a feature of the Asshai'i sect of R'hllor faith, I am not sure why they need a distinct religion when the trait could be modified to be compatible to the R'hllor faith. It might require a good deal of upheaval, but having Asshai'i provinces be R'hllor and having most Asshai'i characters be R'hllor seems like a compliant change. Second feature -- moderated crusades? We know that Baelor, in his madness, talked of waging holy war on the North and Iron Islands. And there was the time that Lelia Lannister's nephew invaded the Islands, and Lord Crakehall declared himself King of the Iron Islands. Perhaps when Faith Authority is high in the location the High Septon is in (the Kingdom of the Reach / The Iron Throne), Great Holy Wars become available after some event such as an Ironborn capturing the Great Sept of Lannisport / Starry Sept in Oldtown, or a grievous offence such as Lelia Lannister's mutilation. Nominating relatives to get the kingdom would be nice, although maybe for more lore compliance, sometimes a local lord may convert and rule instead. Third suggestions are rather silly society ideas for the new F&B religions, Pantera and Yndros, and could be enabled through some sort of Silly Society game rule check: In the Pantera society, Rank 4 allows you to turn into a cat... but if your overlord does not follow Pantera, you will automatically abdicate upon this happening. In the Yndros society, Rank 4 allows you to change gender and get the option to rename your character, with suggestions from the appropriate culture. |
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Post by rufff1 on Feb 16, 2019 16:14:37 GMT
Aren't we also told that Ashai is basically a melting pot of religions, also Quaith doesn't seem to be a follower of rhllor and she is basically the template of a shadowbinder? Baelor doing a crusade would be an interesting one, there was a thread about it yesterday which had some interesting thoughts agotcitadel.boards.net/thread/2068/baelor-blessed-holy-war but the Lannister invasions of the iron islands weren't religious, they were getting revenge on the torture of a Lannister queen, they weren't imposing the seven on the ironborn. |
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Post by verkos on Feb 16, 2019 16:34:10 GMT
I am of the belief that Shadowbinders make more sense as a society, not a religion as we do have Melisandre, a worshiper of Rhllor, and Quathie, not someone we have any religious views on. I think it would make sense to have either Asshai as another branch of Rhllor (one not connected to the Volantene Group which seems to head up the religion in the west), or to make it a Collection of Dark Practices, which has no definite religion, but rather a group dedicated to the darker side of magic.
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Post by Duryn on Feb 16, 2019 16:39:29 GMT
I like the idea of having the Shadowbinders as a Society, because Melisandre is both a Shadowbinder and a Red Priestess, one can argue that (obviously enough) her faith is R'hllor and her practice is Shadowbinding. And like verkos mentioned above, Quaithe doesn't appear to practice any religion in the show, just her art of shadowbinding.
Having a Society would make sense. Sort of like Inquisitors and Christianity in contemporary faith, or Templars, etc.
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Post by josella on Feb 16, 2019 17:42:09 GMT
Some quotes:
Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."
It is also written that there are annals in Asshai of such a darkness, and of a hero who fought against it with a red sword. His deeds are said to have been performed before the rise of Valyria, in the earliest age when Old Ghis was first forming its empire. This legend has spread west from Asshai, and the followers of R'hllor claim that this hero was named Azor Ahai, and prophesy his return.
On it being cosmopolitan:
The dark city by the Shadow is a city steeped in sorcery. Warlocks, wizards, alchemists, moonsingers, red priests, black alchemists, necromancers, aeromancers, pyromancers, bloodmages, torturers, inquisitors, poisoners, godswives, night-walkers, shapechangers, worshippers of the Black Goat and the Pale Child and the Lion of Night, all find welcome in Asshai-by-the-Shadow, where nothing is forbidden.
So yes, there does seem to be a myriad of religions -- but no more than in the Free Cities or Qarth, in my opinion. It also isn't mutually exclusive for them to accept such things and also be the birthplace of the R'hllorite faith, and have that be the main religion to reflect this. And there is nothing stopping Mel from being red priestess and shadowbinder at the same time. So I think the suggestion of a society with a special (open) trait, works well for me, with access to those of R'hllor, Great Shepherd, Bakkalon, Saagael, etc. faiths.
On Seven Crusades, the Lannister-Hoare war was not religious, but it did briefly install a westerman king -- and installing dynasties as kings through the crusades is half the fun, in my opinion. Plus, it would mostly be used if, say, the Ironborn captured the Westerlands, with a joint effort of Seven-worshippers to restore the head of House Lannister to the throne in the name of the Seven.
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Post by rufff1 on Feb 16, 2019 17:58:16 GMT
On the pantera suggestion for less of a silly option I'm perfectly happy for all the skinchanging traits I've added in More Bloodlines to be in the main mod so rather than outright becoming a cat a chance to become a cat skinchanger might be an option
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Post by josella on Feb 16, 2019 18:27:01 GMT
On the pantera suggestion for less of a silly option I'm perfectly happy for all the skinchanging traits I've added in More Bloodlines to be in the main mod so rather than outright becoming a cat a chance to become a cat skinchanger might be an option A sensible option. I guess I got a bit carried away, since there is the Smoking Sea cat event in-game  A skinchanger option would work nicely. |
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Post by jbrams on Feb 16, 2019 18:37:40 GMT
Some quotes: Melisandre was robed all in scarlet satin and blood velvet, her eyes as red as the great ruby that glistened at her throat as if it too were afire. "In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him." It is also written that there are annals in Asshai of such a darkness, and of a hero who fought against it with a red sword. His deeds are said to have been performed before the rise of Valyria, in the earliest age when Old Ghis was first forming its empire. This legend has spread west from Asshai, and the followers of R'hllor claim that this hero was named Azor Ahai, and prophesy his return. On it being cosmopolitan: The dark city by the Shadow is a city steeped in sorcery. Warlocks, wizards, alchemists, moonsingers, red priests, black alchemists, necromancers, aeromancers, pyromancers, bloodmages, torturers, inquisitors, poisoners, godswives, night-walkers, shapechangers, worshippers of the Black Goat and the Pale Child and the Lion of Night, all find welcome in Asshai-by-the-Shadow, where nothing is forbidden. So yes, there does seem to be a myriad of religions -- but no more than in the Free Cities or Qarth, in my opinion. It also isn't mutually exclusive for them to accept such things and also be the birthplace of the R'hllorite faith, and have that be the main religion to reflect this. And there is nothing stopping Mel from being red priestess and shadowbinder at the same time. So I think the suggestion of a society with a special (open) trait, works well for me, with access to those of R'hllor, Great Shepherd, Bakkalon, Saagael, etc. faiths. On Seven Crusades, the Lannister-Hoare war was not religious, but it did briefly install a westerman king -- and installing dynasties as kings through the crusades is half the fun, in my opinion. Plus, it would mostly be used if, say, the Ironborn captured the Westerlands, with a joint effort of Seven-worshippers to restore the head of House Lannister to the throne in the name of the Seven. I think the cosmopolitanism would best be represented as a "Gods of Asshai" religion - the gods of lys or qarth are diverse and varied and ck2 is brilliant at representing religiously diverse areas - a province is either a religion or it isn't, so a religion that represents the cosmopolitanism of ashaii. Indeed this may have been what the devs intended with the shadowbinder religion - not one religion but many religions that cooperate. I do agree though that ashaii is clearly a holy site for the Rhllor faith. |
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Post by josella on Feb 16, 2019 19:07:34 GMT
It'd definitely be a good idea for more of the Free Cities to have religious diversity, especially with knowing of the new gods from Fire & Blood. Personally, I think a good way to implement something like this would be to government-mod republics to automatically be more religiously tolerant -- After the End has such a feature, so you never know what religion you'll get on this election. So it would be nice if the Lysene areas had some Yndros families/provinces, some Pantera ones, some Weeping Lady ones, etc. Same with Braavos having some R'hllor/Many-Faced God dynasties, R'hllorites in Tyrosh, etc. But I think a R'hllor core in Asshai would be for the best, but with many courtiers of different religions showing up. |
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Post by jbrams on Feb 16, 2019 19:14:51 GMT
It'd definitely be a good idea for more of the Free Cities to have religious diversity, especially with knowing of the new gods from Fire & Blood. Personally, I think a good way to implement something like this would be to government-mod republics to automatically be more religiously tolerant -- After the End has such a feature, so you never know what religion you'll get on this election. So it would be nice if the Lysene areas had some Yndros families/provinces, some Pantera ones, some Weeping Lady ones, etc. Same with Braavos having some R'hllor/Many-Faced God dynasties, R'hllorites in Tyrosh, etc. But I think a R'hllor core in Asshai would be for the best, but with many courtiers of different religions showing up. That would definitely be an interesting add-on although for braavos primacy should always go to the Moonsingers given the lore. Also is there anything in the lore that says a person cannot worship both pantera and Yndros? Would something like the Hindu religion in vanilla be better - where you pick a favoured god from a pantheon? |
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Post by josella on Feb 16, 2019 19:32:35 GMT
It'd definitely be a good idea for more of the Free Cities to have religious diversity, especially with knowing of the new gods from Fire & Blood. Personally, I think a good way to implement something like this would be to government-mod republics to automatically be more religiously tolerant -- After the End has such a feature, so you never know what religion you'll get on this election. So it would be nice if the Lysene areas had some Yndros families/provinces, some Pantera ones, some Weeping Lady ones, etc. Same with Braavos having some R'hllor/Many-Faced God dynasties, R'hllorites in Tyrosh, etc. But I think a R'hllor core in Asshai would be for the best, but with many courtiers of different religions showing up. That would definitely be an interesting add-on although for braavos primacy should always go to the Moonsingers given the lore. Also is there anything in the lore that says a person cannot worship both pantera and Yndros? Would something like the Hindu religion in vanilla be better - where you pick a favoured god from a pantheon? Well, Braavos should have the Moonsingers as the county majority, but that does not mean that the ruler always follow the Moonsingers. The Jogos Nhai slaves guided the first Braavosi to the city, but there were a lot of religions brought a long -- after all, there is a reason that Braavos has so many temples. Also according to an RPG that the game has used to fill in some gaps before, the Antaryons and Prestayns follow R'hllor, and the Lostayns probably follow the Many-Faced God. It is said that Larra Rogare actually worshipped Yndros, Pantera, Bakkalon and Saagael, but I am not sure about a Hindu-like faith -- maybe something with Syncretic mechanics like African would work well? Yndros also seems to be the main religion of the Rogares since her siblings also give praise to the god at several points in Fire & Blood. |
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Post by rufff1 on Feb 16, 2019 19:39:24 GMT
That would definitely be an interesting add-on although for braavos primacy should always go to the Moonsingers given the lore. Also is there anything in the lore that says a person cannot worship both pantera and Yndros? Would something like the Hindu religion in vanilla be better - where you pick a favoured god from a pantheon? Well, Braavos should have the Moonsingers as the county majority, but that does not mean that the ruler always follow the Moonsingers. The Jogos Nhai slaves guided the first Braavosi to the city, but there were a lot of religions brought a long -- after all, there is a reason that Braavos has so many temples. Also according to an RPG that the game has used to fill in some gaps before, the Antaryons and Prestayns follow R'hllor, and the Lostayns probably follow the Many-Faced God. It is said that Larra Rogare actually worshipped Yndros, Pantera, Bakkalon and Saagael, but I am not sure about a Hindu-like faith -- maybe something with Syncretic mechanics like African would work well? Yndros also seems to be the main religion of the Rogares since her siblings also give praise to the god at several points in Fire & Blood. I had a thought - favoured god mechanics for the seven, not for all FoS characters, but zealous ones have a chance for an event to fire giving them a trait reflecting the god they chose to pray to most often - the father could grant a +1 diplomacy, the mother a +5% fertility, the smith a +1 stewardship, the warrior a +1 martial, the stranger a +1 intrigue, the maiden an opinion boost with the opposite sex, and then something for the crone (nothing really springs to mind, maybe a slight health boost?) I think this could add some not CE flavour to the Faith and if the bonuses were kept small it could actually fit quite well with what we know about westeros |
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Post by josella on Feb 16, 2019 19:49:03 GMT
I had a thought - favoured god mechanics for the seven, not for all FoS characters, but zealous ones have a chance for an event to fire giving them a trait reflecting the god they chose to pray to most often - the father could grant a +1 diplomacy, the mother a +5% fertility, the smith a +1 stewardship, the warrior a +1 martial, the stranger a +1 intrigue, the maiden an opinion boost with the opposite sex, and then something for the crone (nothing really springs to mind, maybe a slight health boost?) I think this could add some not CE flavour to the Faith and if the bonuses were kept small it could actually fit quite well with what we know about westeros The Crone is known for being wise, so learning would be the go-to stat with such mechanics, imo.  |
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Post by rufff1 on Feb 16, 2019 19:50:42 GMT
I had a thought - favoured god mechanics for the seven, not for all FoS characters, but zealous ones have a chance for an event to fire giving them a trait reflecting the god they chose to pray to most often - the father could grant a +1 diplomacy, the mother a +5% fertility, the smith a +1 stewardship, the warrior a +1 martial, the stranger a +1 intrigue, the maiden an opinion boost with the opposite sex, and then something for the crone (nothing really springs to mind, maybe a slight health boost?) I think this could add some not CE flavour to the Faith and if the bonuses were kept small it could actually fit quite well with what we know about westeros The Crone is known for being wise, so learning would be the go-to stat with such mechanics, imo. good call |
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Post by soulbourne on Feb 16, 2019 22:46:13 GMT
Something to note, though whether worth the devs time or not is debatable, you could reflect the diversity of provinces with county tags denoting religious minorities. and have seperate events for courtiers appearing or chances to convert faith. Depending on depth can have these minority tags have "strength" levels representing amount of the community with an even to examine your personally held counties diversity. You could go a step further by having trade posts, trade routes, and neighboring counties passively influence these and if they gain enough strength even become dominant county religion. Instead of prostelytixing directly change the county have it affect strength of minorities through expansion/persecution until it reaches a strength to flip the county.
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A skinchanger option would work nicely.