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Post by Roshambo on Dec 17, 2017 6:32:47 GMT
I'm pretty sure that a deranged asshole with anger issues, a victim complex, a superiority complex, and who at the time of making the threat and hitting said waifu was very, very drunk. A drunk Joffrey would do this. I have no doubt. I don't think the lunatic trait would work with Viserys, maybe a new trait based off the possessed trait might work, just rename the trait from possessed to something else. Viserys was pretty much like that even when he wasn't drunk. Specially when "waking the dragon" seems to imply rape for little Daenerys in one of her dreams. No he wasn't, Viserys was never that bold when sober. After all, chapters do say that Illyrio had posted guards around Daenerys so that Viserys would attempt to rape her, which he didn't, even when he was drunk. And the waking the dragon thing was just a metaphor for him to tell his sister to "know her place". |
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Post by andremassena on Dec 17, 2017 8:25:15 GMT
The whole "Targ madness" meme seems overblown based on the info we have from the worldbook and novellas tbh.
-Aerys is the only one who was unquestionably a lunatic.
-Aerion was most likely one.
-Viserys was mentally ill but I wouldn't say he was outright insane, though it seemed like he was gradually following his father's downward mental trajectory. It seems like Viserys could have had this tendency checked if he was raised in saner circumstances.
-Rhaegel seems more like he had a severe mental disability though we don't have too much info on him.
-Aemond and Rhaenyra were just assholes.
-Based on the last novella I would say Maegor was clearly not mad, which perhaps makes him more frightening.
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Post by verkos on Dec 17, 2017 17:39:42 GMT
I agree that Viserys was not quite fully insane, but that he definitely was on the path towards that. Even his "waking the dragon" I would say points to significant mental issues, that with the loss of control over Dany made his descent quicker. I have no problem with him being listed as a lunatic as that is the closest trait that fits. I have always felt that the coin flip as described by Barristan meant less of madness or greatness of the mind, but rather madness/greatness in their rule and effect on the realm. In Aerys it was both madness of the individual and his management and ruling of Westeros. I have always felt that it was funny that Barristan was given the quote from Jaehaerys II, who I consider one of the unremarkable kings, where their rule did not do much one way or the other, thus weakening the coin flip idea.
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Post by ManicMayo on Dec 21, 2017 4:31:10 GMT
Viserys was more a victim of circumstance than of any inherited madness, certainly not a lunatic. I'd even go one further and say that he wasn't actually a bad guy at all. Just desperate to go home after a tough life in exile. He was born as a prince but grew up as a destitute child in a foreign land with the added challenge of having to raise his younger sister. After spending much of his life on the run from the usurper's assassins, who could have blamed him for being eager to cross the Narrow Sea and claim his perceived birthright? To go to whatever lengths possible to save his dynasty and avenge his father? I've always thought that this post on Reddit does such a good job at making the case for Viserys that it almost makes Dany look like the bad guy out of the two of them. |
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Post by hiigara129 on Jan 15, 2018 3:40:38 GMT
At the very least when he becomes a lunatic should be moved. At present the trait appears during Robert's rebellion; according to Dany he didn't start his decline until after they were kicked out of Braavos and forced to beg across the Free cities. So it should be moved to the early to mid 8290s. Also completely agree that we need a special Targaryen mad(ess)/Lunatic trait. Several Targaryens had mental illness but only Aerys (and likely Aerion) can veritably be considered a lunatic. The others, like Maegor and Baelor the Blessed, have clear mental issues but don't fall into the lunatic category.
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Post by Paxter Redwyne on Feb 1, 2018 15:57:55 GMT
I don't have much to say about this topic, but I think Viserys should get lunatic trait later in his life. According to Daenerys, he was rather normal before he became bitter, angry and cruel from years of exile.
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Post by knppel on Feb 3, 2018 9:08:35 GMT
Keep in mind, "Lunatic" covers any kind of deranged worldview that goes beyond the ordinary (as in, you're not particularly mad just because you're cruel and raping the women of your prisoners of war, that just makes you a cruel asshole).
Viserys, The Third of his name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar etc. pp. did, as far as I can read out of the books and his appearance in the series, certainly suffer from such a condition much rather than just being the described asshole.
In fact, the sane part (that's slowly losing it anyway) is likely what keeps him from being too aggressive towards Daenerys (knowing lowkey he'd not get away with it, no matter if at Illyrio's or with the Dothraki later on).
However, Viserys is not just unable to admit this to himself, he's so deranged he keeps up the illusion for himself anyway, despite reality turning out different (a bunch of savages taking and fucking his sister and treating him like shit, and he still manages to convince him these people will go get him his rightful throne. Seriously? Lol.)
That's why I think the lunatic trait fits. I mean, if anyone would have told him that this cup of wildfire, if drank all at once, turns you into a dragon... he just never got his hands on one, that's all.
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Post by Rhaenys on Feb 7, 2018 0:25:43 GMT
In my opinion he had, like many Targaryen, some mental issues, but Vyseris wasn't that mad. I doubt he would howl at the moon or think that he can really morph into a dragon drinking wildfire. He thought he should have been treated like his birth station, but he simply lacked any formal education, he seems to have been treated as an asset of low value compared to Daenerys by Illyrio who evidently didn't provide (I suspect deliberately) for him the basic training for a person supposed to become a ruler and then he simply went for his big quest.
Most of Viserys worst moments seem triggered by his rage toward being considered irrelevant by almost anyone and his situation was aggravated by is complete ignorance of other nations and cultures customs: for example I never understood why he didn't go to Volantis, where he could easily, only by virtues of his name, married in some aristocratic family of the old city and live if not like a king, at least like a Westerosi lord. But Viserys didn't really know about Dothraki and he simply thought of them as savages while still expecting the barbarians to somewhat care for Westerosi or Valyrian customs. And they didn't.
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Post by knppel on Feb 7, 2018 2:29:23 GMT
for example I never understood why he didn't go to Volantis, where he could easily, only by virtues of his name, married in some aristocratic family of the old city Because he was so deranged that he believed more in his rightful claim than seeing to maintain a life. On top of that came bad luck, of course, which ultimately got him killed. Just that he was in my observation a bit insane doesn't make him a less tragic character. However, unlike his sometimes harsh, but certainly rationally calculating sister, he made frankly mad choices when having the freedom to choose differently: Such as accompanying the Dothraki to assume command of "his army" as soon as possible, rather than staying with Illyrio- unlike her, he was not sold off, he went on his own intent. We all know how that ended. With him up to the last second creating his illusion of the world just waiting for King Viserys to be crowned rightfully. |
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Post by haroldlauder on Feb 8, 2018 0:27:55 GMT
I took a quick look at Viserys' history file cause I kind of concur with this discussion
\Crusader Kings II\mod\A Game of Thrones\history\characters\crownlands.txt
Adding a few # signs and a small addition should fix everyone's complaints
Line 321 change to
#add_trait = lunatic #Prevents Viserys from being a lunatic during Robert's Rebellion era starts
Line 683 change to
#add_trait=lunatic #Prevents Viserys from being a lunatic during post Robert's Rebellion era starts
Add a new line after 809 so it looks like this
8288.1.1 = { give_nickname = nick_the_beggar_king }
add_trait=lunatic #Makes Viserys a lunatic at the same time he gets the nickname The Beggar King
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Post by daltishlemonade on Feb 9, 2018 5:49:12 GMT
Good points, Roshambo, I'm convinced.
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