|
|
Post by Lord Gardener on Jan 30, 2019 10:47:47 GMT
Hi,
I suggest to create a duchy for the house Velaryon, in the book, they are the Lord of the tides, whereas in the game, they are vassals of peyredragon.
And also add the loyalty of Velaryon Targaryen, with for example a +60 for life, even if the Targaryen king is a tyran !
Thanx!
|
|
|
|
Post by soulbourne on Jan 30, 2019 19:56:14 GMT
This comes up a lot and seems heavily debated when it does. Generally opinion seems to be for it from the playerbase, with the main caveat tending to be the vassal of the prince of dragonstone thing. I personally feel that it would solve the issue of the AI constantly granting dragonstone to valaryons, but in general also believe my suggested for princes of dragonstone with certian traits representing their strength of authority allowing a titular kingdom with valaryons under them to form(Which also encourages strong lords to more likely take a side in civil wars actively, for better or worse).
|
|
|
|
Post by Lord Gardener on Jan 31, 2019 8:28:40 GMT
At the beginning of the game, we should have an option if we want the Velaryons to have a duchy or not..
|
|
|
|
Post by anarchys2ndson on Jan 31, 2019 12:26:29 GMT
yeah, but aren't there two submods that can address this? If the devs don't implement it.
|
|
|
|
Post by hnrqb1 on Jan 31, 2019 14:05:54 GMT
I agree dragonstone should be a kingdom with both the targaryen and velaryon duchies but I think that could cause some troubles, like they conquering other crownland duchies, and anyway the duke of dragonstone is in no way near to a Lord Paramount. One issue with driftmark being a mere county though is that the targ branch that holds the throne rarelly agrees to marry them, because of the prestige effect.
At the very least the velaryons should get a blooline claim to driftmark, and maybe it could also give a substantial bonus relation to the targs.
|
|
|
|
Post by rufff1 on Jan 31, 2019 15:45:55 GMT
I agree dragonstone should be a kingdom with both the targaryen and velaryon duchies but I think that could cause some troubles, like they conquering other crownland duchies, and anyway the duke of dragonstone is in no way near to a Lord Paramount. One issue with driftmark being a mere county though is that the targ branch that holds the throne rarelly agrees to marry them, because of the prestige effect. At the very least the velaryons should get a blooline claim to driftmark, and maybe it could also give a substantial bonus relation to the targs. I disagree with that - the Prince of Dragonstone is definitely on the same level as a Lord Paramount, especially when one considers that it controls Massey's Hook which is currently a High Lordship of its own (they fought for Aegon and for Stannis, and appear to be sworn to Dragonstone rather than KL directly) also the Velaryons as second house of the Kingdoms for most of Westerosi history should definitely be a duchy. I'd suggest making it a conditional title, much like how Kingdoms like the North etc can be either king or emperor tier, make it so the kingdom can only be held by a member of the ruling dynasty and if it is not in existence the de jure liege snaps back to the current setup. I think if the kingdom was set up so that it was the current duchy of Dragonstone and the duchy of Massey's Hook (perhaps giving the Celtigars a claim on the HL of Crabclaw Point to mirror their pretensions to it), it would be quite stable and not try and conquer the rest of the Crownlands (aside from the Celtigars but that would be lore compliant). I do agree with a relationship bonus though |
|
|
|
Post by rufff1 on Jan 31, 2019 15:52:25 GMT
I'd also add in terms of new kingdom titles that, and I'm not fully certain how to do it exactly but I might have a crack if I have time, but having a kingdom tier title tied to a barony in KL that can only be held by the Hand of the King would be a neat way to enable you to appoint vassals of vassals as Hands - you give them the title and they become independent of their liege, you kick them off the council and they lose the title and revert back to original liege, it should also stop lord paramounts in asking for vassals like Harrenhal or Oldtown back when their lords are hands.
Lastly something really should be done about AI behaviour on dragonstone - Stannis in particular seems to really not being able to handle holding KL, Storms End and Dragonstone all at once and within a month of winning the throne seems to have granted one away, on my last playthrough he granted KL away to a 9 year old bastard son of the lord of cracklaw point county.
|
|
|
|
Post by Paxter Redwyne on Jan 31, 2019 17:21:37 GMT
I agree dragonstone should be a kingdom with both the targaryen and velaryon duchies but I think that could cause some troubles, like they conquering other crownland duchies, and anyway the duke of dragonstone is in no way near to a Lord Paramount. One issue with driftmark being a mere county though is that the targ branch that holds the throne rarelly agrees to marry them, because of the prestige effect. At the very least the velaryons should get a blooline claim to driftmark, and maybe it could also give a substantial bonus relation to the targs. I disagree with that - the Prince of Dragonstone is definitely on the same level as a Lord Paramount, especially when one considers that it controls Massey's Hook which is currently a High Lordship of its own (they fought for Aegon and for Stannis, and appear to be sworn to Dragonstone rather than KL directly) also the Velaryons as second house of the Kingdoms for most of Westerosi history should definitely be a duchy. I'd suggest making it a conditional title, much like how Kingdoms like the North etc can be either king or emperor tier, make it so the kingdom can only be held by a member of the ruling dynasty and if it is not in existence the de jure liege snaps back to the current setup. I think if the kingdom was set up so that it was the current duchy of Dragonstone and the duchy of Massey's Hook (perhaps giving the Celtigars a claim on the HL of Crabclaw Point to mirror their pretensions to it), it would be quite stable and not try and conquer the rest of the Crownlands (aside from the Celtigars but that would be lore compliant). I do agree with a relationship bonus though We don't have confirmation that Masseys are directly sworn to Dragonstone. That they fought alongside Dragonstone Lords most of the time in no way confirms that. Dragonstone is simply way too small for a kingdom. |
|
|
|
Post by melancholyroar on Jan 31, 2019 17:47:31 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by rufff1 on Jan 31, 2019 18:04:19 GMT
I disagree with that - the Prince of Dragonstone is definitely on the same level as a Lord Paramount, especially when one considers that it controls Massey's Hook which is currently a High Lordship of its own (they fought for Aegon and for Stannis, and appear to be sworn to Dragonstone rather than KL directly) also the Velaryons as second house of the Kingdoms for most of Westerosi history should definitely be a duchy. I'd suggest making it a conditional title, much like how Kingdoms like the North etc can be either king or emperor tier, make it so the kingdom can only be held by a member of the ruling dynasty and if it is not in existence the de jure liege snaps back to the current setup. I think if the kingdom was set up so that it was the current duchy of Dragonstone and the duchy of Massey's Hook (perhaps giving the Celtigars a claim on the HL of Crabclaw Point to mirror their pretensions to it), it would be quite stable and not try and conquer the rest of the Crownlands (aside from the Celtigars but that would be lore compliant). I do agree with a relationship bonus though We don't have confirmation that Masseys are directly sworn to Dragonstone. That they fought alongside Dragonstone Lords most of the time in no way confirms that. Dragonstone is simply way too small for a kingdom. I think its exceptionally likely, beyond the fact that the Masseys were with Stannis from the start which seems an odd choice unless they were his vassals, in Fire and Blood, when Jahaerys holes up on Dragonstone after marriage the Massey's and Bar Emmon lords are regular visitors to him there but we aren't told of other crownland lords doing so, suggesting that like claw isle and driftmark they are sworn to dragonstone, and I agree that dragonstone on it's own right is too small to be a kingdom its role as the demense of the crown prince changes that which is why I feel that the kingdom should only exist when held by a member of the dynasty holding the IT, so its not something that gets granted away but is an appanage like Wales or the Dauphiné were for the Princes of England and France. This shouldn't be impossible - I'd suggest that Driftmark is always a duchy and that when you grant the duchy of dragonstone to a family member an event fires which creates a kingdom title for dragonstone and changes the de jure liege for Massey's point and the driftmark duchy to the Principality of Dragonstone or whatever it gets called, then if the holder inherits the Iron Throne the title gets destroyed in the same way that the k_vale title gets destroyed if the holder gets e_vale. Yes dragonstone isn't the same as a kingdom but a crown prince of Dragonstone like Rhaegar or Baelor Breakspearis definitely the same level as a Lord Paramount. |
|
|
|
Post by hnrqb1 on Jan 31, 2019 19:13:29 GMT
the Prince of Dragonstone is definitely on the same level as a Lord Paramount Stannis doesn't seems to think so in the books though.
The conditional title idea seems great, probably too much so, I can't see it going smoothly with ck2's AI, but if you figure out how to do it that would be an awesome submod, though please do include the one-county driftmark duchy.
|
|
|
|
Post by Paxter Redwyne on Jan 31, 2019 19:14:48 GMT
We don't have confirmation that Masseys are directly sworn to Dragonstone. That they fought alongside Dragonstone Lords most of the time in no way confirms that. Dragonstone is simply way too small for a kingdom. I think its exceptionally likely, beyond the fact that the Masseys were with Stannis from the start which seems an odd choice unless they were his vassals, in Fire and Blood, when Jahaerys holes up on Dragonstone after marriage the Massey's and Bar Emmon lords are regular visitors to him there but we aren't told of other crownland lords doing so, suggesting that like claw isle and driftmark they are sworn to dragonstone, and I agree that dragonstone on it's own right is too small to be a kingdom its role as the demense of the crown prince changes that which is why I feel that the kingdom should only exist when held by a member of the dynasty holding the IT, so its not something that gets granted away but is an appanage like Wales or the Dauphiné were for the Princes of England and France. This shouldn't be impossible - I'd suggest that Driftmark is always a duchy and that when you grant the duchy of dragonstone to a family member an event fires which creates a kingdom title for dragonstone and changes the de jure liege for Massey's point and the driftmark duchy to the Principality of Dragonstone or whatever it gets called, then if the holder inherits the Iron Throne the title gets destroyed in the same way that the k_vale title gets destroyed if the holder gets e_vale. Yes dragonstone isn't the same as a kingdom but a crown prince of Dragonstone like Rhaegar or Baelor Breakspearis definitely the same level as a Lord Paramount. Massey wasn't present at Stannis' first council and burning statues of the seven. And Farrings and Chytterings also supported Stannis from the start. In Fire and Blood Jaehaerys was visited on Dragonstone also by lords Rosby, Mooton, Rollingford, Harte, Staunton, Darklyn and Stokeworth. You are just wrong. Prince of Dragonstone was equal to Lord Paramounts thanks to their status as heir to the Iron Throne, not because of their demesne. Stannis openly says that Dragonstone itself is poor. About Masseys, I would be happy to put them under Dragonstone, but there is no clear evidence that states they are sworn to Dragonstone. |
|
|
|
Post by rufff1 on Jan 31, 2019 19:58:41 GMT
the Prince of Dragonstone is definitely on the same level as a Lord Paramount Stannis doesn't seems to think so in the books though.
The conditional title idea seems great, probably too much so, I can't see it going smoothly with ck2's AI, but if you figure out how to do it that would be an awesome submod, though please do include the one-county driftmark duchy.
I'd argue Stannis doesn't see them as equal because of his personality - after all he does seem to take offence at quite a lot, also its certainly true that in terms of income and troops dragonstone is worse than Storms End, but that would be reflected by the fact that even with Massey's Hook the revenues and armies of the Prince of Dragonstone would be smaller. Having varying sized kingdoms is nothing new in the mod though, the Reach is bigger and richer than the Riverlands for instance, but its not an argument to make the Riverlands a duchy for example. I think its exceptionally likely, beyond the fact that the Masseys were with Stannis from the start which seems an odd choice unless they were his vassals, in Fire and Blood, when Jahaerys holes up on Dragonstone after marriage the Massey's and Bar Emmon lords are regular visitors to him there but we aren't told of other crownland lords doing so, suggesting that like claw isle and driftmark they are sworn to dragonstone, and I agree that dragonstone on it's own right is too small to be a kingdom its role as the demense of the crown prince changes that which is why I feel that the kingdom should only exist when held by a member of the dynasty holding the IT, so its not something that gets granted away but is an appanage like Wales or the Dauphiné were for the Princes of England and France. This shouldn't be impossible - I'd suggest that Driftmark is always a duchy and that when you grant the duchy of dragonstone to a family member an event fires which creates a kingdom title for dragonstone and changes the de jure liege for Massey's point and the driftmark duchy to the Principality of Dragonstone or whatever it gets called, then if the holder inherits the Iron Throne the title gets destroyed in the same way that the k_vale title gets destroyed if the holder gets e_vale. Yes dragonstone isn't the same as a kingdom but a crown prince of Dragonstone like Rhaegar or Baelor Breakspearis definitely the same level as a Lord Paramount. Massey wasn't present at Stannis' first council and burning statues of the seven. And Farrings and Chytterings also supported Stannis from the start. In Fire and Blood Jaehaerys was visited on Dragonstone also by lords Rosby, Mooton, Rollingford, Harte, Staunton, Darklyn and Stokeworth. You are just wrong. Prince of Dragonstone was equal to Lord Paramounts thanks to their status as heir to the Iron Throne, not because of their demesne. Stannis openly says that Dragonstone itself is poor. About Masseys, I would be happy to put them under Dragonstone, but there is no clear evidence that states they are sworn to Dragonstone. Look mate I'm not trying to fight over this, just giving my opinion and a suggestion of what strikes me as a sensible way to implement it whilst making it only apply to a holder of the royal house. As for you rebuttals fair enough on the other visitors to Jahaerys, didn't have the book to hand and was going off memory. But I still think the loyalty to Aegon and Stannis and the fact that GRRM says they were made part of the crownlands not that they were sworn to KL makes it a significant possibility that the Masseys are vassals of Dragonstone, as for them not being at the burning for all we know they were, its a POV chapter after all and Cressen had his mind on other things. I completely agree that as a region dragonstone isn't a kingdom but it is the prestige of the heir that makes it equivalent which is why I suggest making the kingdom inactive unless it is held by a family member. Yes, their demenses are not equal to that of a lord paramount but that is reflected in lower income and levies which would not be affected by them having a king tier title, all that would change is it would let the Velaryons be high Lords like they should and stop them asking for Dragonstone and it would give the Prince of Dragonstone more prestige which would all be entirely lore compliant |
|
|
|
Post by soulbourne on Feb 1, 2019 4:33:56 GMT
I made a suggestion 2? 3? times ago when this was suggested that dragonstone have a decision when held by a strong heir to the throne(So it's locked and restricted by certian traits, prestige, etc to demonstrate whether or not they would have the fortitude ambition or authority to claim such) they can fire a decision and create a very specifically titular kingdom level title. No de jure claims or anything, just a titular title representing them claiming a more upstart place in the politics of land, while a weak heir or non-heir holder of the title would be unable to fire this decision, representing the fact for numerous reasons just being the prince of dragonstone does not garner them as much respect-this will reflect in AI reasoning since they tend to be more behind the power of anyone with a king title for marriages and other things, but if he is weak and a duke he'll consequently have less political clout by the AI reasoning. I figure having it be a purely titular title that must be claimed and is not granted is best way to represent it for both AI and the IG. Not everyone can be a respected badass just because daddy says they are  |
|
