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Post by jedi7000nathan on Dec 20, 2018 2:05:39 GMT
The way the Ibbeneese are described in the books sounds an awful lot like Dwarves from other fantasy, now a lot of lore guys are going to say they are actually Neanderthals but that doesn't make sense from the way they are described: the way they are described was that they had serious issues breeding with humans, Neanderthals did not have this issue in fact 4% of human DNA is from Neanderthals, so making the Ibbeneese a Dwarf faction would be an interesting twist, they would still have a lot of the their lore flavor but they would be Dwarves, and would have traits as such, they could then have Dwarf portraits and crafting events, speaking of events it would be nice to get the option to go hunt Whales and other creatures of the deep, the Ibbeneese are great whalers also give them some unique armor and weapons they could make, Dwarves are renowned craftsmen, overall I think making the people of Ibben Dwarves would make a lot of sense from a lore perspective and open up a lot for gameplay
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Post by melander on Dec 20, 2018 10:38:30 GMT
I think saying they're dwarves is a stretch, when people say they are neanderthals its neanderthals after so much convergent evolution reproduction is nigh impossible (also interbreeding appears to be more possible than most people assume, Brown Ben Plumm's grandmother for example was said to be half Ibbenese - although that could just be a story he told, and some maesters believe the Skagosi have some Ibbenese blood), also the facial features of "sloping brows with heavy ridges, small sunken eyes, great square teeth, and massive jaws" resemble neanderthal skulls. Ibbenese people are short and hairy and have a few mines on Ib, sure but we don't really have enough info to say that they are dwarves and things like being a nation of sea farers is pretty undwarflike and they don't seem to have the clan based society fantasy dwarves usually have. We already have a name for them so calling them dwarves wouldn't make sense, the portraits already mirror the facial features they are said to have, giving them the dwarf trait like the Lengi have a predisposition to the tall trait would also be unrealistic because the Ibbenese are ferocious and dangerous fighter so the combat penalties of the dwarf trait would be unrealistic, and we don't really know enough about their culture to give them unique armour and weapon events, although I do like the idea of whale hunts and perhaps hunting down Krakens
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Toccs
Moderator
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Post by Toccs on Dec 20, 2018 20:41:40 GMT
I don't think there would be any lore basis for that. Aside from their women being hirsute they have nothing in common with fantasy dwarves and are certainly not renowned warriors or craftsmen.
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Post by jedi7000nathan on Dec 21, 2018 21:40:01 GMT
I don't think there would be any lore basis for that. Aside from their women being hirsute they have nothing in common with fantasy dwarves and are certainly not renowned warriors or craftsmen. I wasn't saying they should be given the dwarf trait, also to say they aren't renowned warriors is wrong, there are a few characters from Ibben in the books and they are very much great fighters, also the Ibbenese weapon of choice are Axes, name one universe where Neanderthals wield battle axes as their go to weapon, also its said about them that a number of their people live underground also we know little about them, this a case where you can stretch the lore a bit to allow for what would make an interesting faction out of a faction that has no real unique mechanics to set them apart from other factions in the region, Saath is unique in that they are the sole remaining Sarnori in the region, The Dothraki are the Dothraki, the people of Hyrkoon are amazing warriors and have their own way of making sure you get the best heir, with Ibben they are a merchant republic with nothing that sets them apart from other factions of the same type, heck not even the Free Citie are uniform, they are one of the more generic factions in the mod, my suggestion would spice them up and make for an interesting faction, even if doing so is a stretch at best from a Lore standpoint |
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Post by jedi7000nathan on Dec 21, 2018 21:51:16 GMT
I think saying they're dwarves is a stretch, when people say they are neanderthals its neanderthals after so much convergent evolution reproduction is nigh impossible (also interbreeding appears to be more possible than most people assume, Brown Ben Plumm's grandmother for example was said to be half Ibbenese - although that could just be a story he told, and some maesters believe the Skagosi have some Ibbenese blood), also the facial features of "sloping brows with heavy ridges, small sunken eyes, great square teeth, and massive jaws" resemble neanderthal skulls. Ibbenese people are short and hairy and have a few mines on Ib, sure but we don't really have enough info to say that they are dwarves and things like being a nation of sea farers is pretty undwarflike and they don't seem to have the clan based society fantasy dwarves usually have. We already have a name for them so calling them dwarves wouldn't make sense, the portraits already mirror the facial features they are said to have, giving them the dwarf trait like the Lengi have a predisposition to the tall trait would also be unrealistic because the Ibbenese are ferocious and dangerous fighter so the combat penalties of the dwarf trait would be unrealistic, and we don't really know enough about their culture to give them unique armour and weapon events, although I do like the idea of whale hunts and perhaps hunting down Krakens With regards to the seafaring few other Fantasy universes haven't ever stuck dwarves on a island before, if you're an Island civilization you are going to be good seaferars, Also I wasn't saying give them the Dwarf trait, more like give them something like Ibbenese which gives them some bonuses but makes them have maluses against other people and gives them firm diplo problem with the Dothraki who have reasons to despise the Ibbeneese mostly do to the fact that when the Dothraki attacked Ibbish rather then fight them they simply ran away and abandoned the city, leaving the Dothraki to destroy it and rename it the City of Cowards in their tongue, also as to Skagosi looking like Neanderthals, remember that those born from a Ibbenese parent that live suffer from deformations so what do you think would happen if you have a people who've over time been descended from people who have been deformed of course their not going to look human, also in what fantasy universe has there been a union between a Dwarf and Human, there may be a reason why the to don't have children, possibly do to the fact that their children would be malformed, also their weapon of choice is a battle Axe and they fight in disciplined formations without cavalry notabley something which Dwarves in nearly every fantasy universe do, also they changed their government from God Kings, for all we know they did have a clan system and abolished it when they were ruled by the Shadow Council |
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Post by rufff1 on Dec 21, 2018 21:57:46 GMT
Ibbenese already have a reproduction malus with non ibbenese, same as the brindled men, I think the the new duel system lets you give races favoured weapons so by all means make the ibbenese use axes by default in the localisation, but beyond that what would making them "dwarves" accomplish in terms of mechanics - the base mod has always tried to be as lore consistent as possible so outright dwarvish traits not based in lore wouldn't really fit, and most of what little lore we have on the ibbenese is already implemented in the mod
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Post by melander on Dec 22, 2018 1:19:44 GMT
I don't think there would be any lore basis for that. Aside from their women being hirsute they have nothing in common with fantasy dwarves and are certainly not renowned warriors or craftsmen. I wasn't saying they should be given the dwarf trait, also to say they aren't renowned warriors is wrong, there are a few characters from Ibben in the books and they are very much great fighters, also the Ibbenese weapon of choice are Axes, name one universe where Neanderthals wield battle axes as their go to weapon, also its said about them that a number of their people live underground also we know little about them, this a case where you can stretch the lore a bit to allow for what would make an interesting faction out of a faction that has no real unique mechanics to set them apart from other factions in the region, Saath is unique in that they are the sole remaining Sarnori in the region, The Dothraki are the Dothraki, the people of Hyrkoon are amazing warriors and have their own way of making sure you get the best heir, with Ibben they are a merchant republic with nothing that sets them apart from other factions of the same type, heck not even the Free Citie are uniform, they are one of the more generic factions in the mod, my suggestion would spice them up and make for an interesting faction, even if doing so is a stretch at best from a Lore standpoint To be accurate, they don't so much live underground as "make their homes in caves or houses of grey stone which they dig into the earth" which I'd argue was not GRRM making a dwarf connection as strengthening the neanderthal connection by literally making the countryside ibbenese literally cave men, they aren't living in elaborate mines and delvings like dwarves, it seems somewhere between cave people and simple hobbit holes. What I mean when I say its more like hobbit holes than a dwarven delving is that the delving is a city, a hobbit hole is simple single small occupant underground residences that aren't interconnected. there is no indication the caves and dug houses of the ibbenese are interconnected, and the cities they have are not underground (ie Ibbish, Port Ibben etc) which suggests that the cave dwelling or underground life was a more primitive form of residence that city dwelling Ibbenese have put behind them. As for the axes neanderthals used stone axes as well as spears and arrows Also, yes they are generic but we don't have much lore on them and as rufff1 said the devs try to stick to the lore not make new stuff up. I think you might be onto something about the merchant republic though, I think the shadow council sounds more like a triarchy/noble oligarchy than a merchant republic I think saying they're dwarves is a stretch, when people say they are neanderthals its neanderthals after so much convergent evolution reproduction is nigh impossible (also interbreeding appears to be more possible than most people assume, Brown Ben Plumm's grandmother for example was said to be half Ibbenese - although that could just be a story he told, and some maesters believe the Skagosi have some Ibbenese blood), also the facial features of "sloping brows with heavy ridges, small sunken eyes, great square teeth, and massive jaws" resemble neanderthal skulls. Ibbenese people are short and hairy and have a few mines on Ib, sure but we don't really have enough info to say that they are dwarves and things like being a nation of sea farers is pretty undwarflike and they don't seem to have the clan based society fantasy dwarves usually have. We already have a name for them so calling them dwarves wouldn't make sense, the portraits already mirror the facial features they are said to have, giving them the dwarf trait like the Lengi have a predisposition to the tall trait would also be unrealistic because the Ibbenese are ferocious and dangerous fighter so the combat penalties of the dwarf trait would be unrealistic, and we don't really know enough about their culture to give them unique armour and weapon events, although I do like the idea of whale hunts and perhaps hunting down Krakens With regards to the seafaring few other Fantasy universes haven't ever stuck dwarves on a island before, if you're an Island civilization you are going to be good seaferars, Also I wasn't saying give them the Dwarf trait, more like give them something like Ibbenese which gives them some bonuses but makes them have maluses against other people and gives them firm diplo problem with the Dothraki who have reasons to despise the Ibbeneese mostly do to the fact that when the Dothraki attacked Ibbish rather then fight them they simply ran away and abandoned the city, leaving the Dothraki to destroy it and rename it the City of Cowards in their tongue, also as to Skagosi looking like Neanderthals, remember that those born from a Ibbenese parent that live suffer from deformations so what do you think would happen if you have a people who've over time been descended from people who have been deformed of course their not going to look human, also in what fantasy universe has there been a union between a Dwarf and Human, there may be a reason why the to don't have children, possibly do to the fact that their children would be malformed, also their weapon of choice is a battle Axe and they fight in disciplined formations without cavalry notabley something which Dwarves in nearly every fantasy universe do, also they changed their government from God Kings, for all we know they did have a clan system and abolished it when they were ruled by the Shadow Council and sure dwarves haven't been stuck on an island before and yes they'd probably be seafarers in that case, but my point was there's not really enough to claim ibbenese are dwarves, if we only knew what most of Essos knew about the lannisters - ie they live on a mountain called the Rock, they are fabulously rich, their wealth comes from gold and their castle is on top of a network of intricate tunnels, we might think they were dwarves, but they aren't, yes they might have had a clan society before the Doom, but we don't know that they did so it doesn't make sense to give them one. An opinion malus with the Dothraki makes sense given their history. I think also given their history something could be made of their version of Offa's Dyke that holds back the Dothraki, its said to be a third of the height of the Wall and nearly as long which is enormous, so maybe a defensive bonus in New Ibbish like the Wall has. Also Ibbenese are the best wrestlers in the world and it is the national sport so maybe wrestling contests like tourneys/melees could be introduced (far lower chance of wounding though) The other potential lore based idea would be some sort of mechanic to mirror the Ibbenese superstition that a man is doomed if he goes beyond the sound of the sea, making it so Ibbenese characters suffer penalties for holding inland provinces. As for not having cavalry I can't find anything about that - when Arya has a wolf dream of Nymeria killing some brave companion foragers at least one is on a horse and there is an Ibbenese, so it is possible the Ibbenese was on a horse as it doesn't make sense to have a scout party half mounted and half not. Also final point on the Ibbenese not being dwarves - The World of Ice and Fire: "Tales are told of the Hairy Men, a race of shaggy savage warriors, who rode to battle on unicorns. Though larger than the Ibbenese of the present, they may well have been their forebears." - ie the hairy men (who are frequently assumed to be the ancestors of the Ibbenese) were of NORMAL HEIGHT, it is likely that the Ibbenese are these Hairy Men/GRRMNeanderthals who have suffered from insular dwarfism - the evolutionary process by which animals on islands get smaller than on the mainland (ie Cretan mamoths which were the size of medium dogs www.nature.com/news/mini-mammoth-once-roamed-crete-1.10605 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammuthus_creticus) |
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Post by rufff1 on Dec 22, 2018 1:31:48 GMT
if we only knew what most of Essos knew about the lannisters - ie they live on a mountain called the Rock, they are fabulously rich, their wealth comes from gold and their castle is on top of a network of intricate tunnels, we might think they were dwarves, but they aren't, yes they might have had a clan society before the Doom, but we don't know that they did so it doesn't make sense to give them one. Tbf one of them is most definitely a dwarf - just not of the Tolkien variety |
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