erbkaiser
Modder (CK2)
Taking a long break from modding
Posts: 693 
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Post by erbkaiser on Sept 17, 2019 5:05:55 GMT
Make sure you're using the special More Bloodlines version of CV.
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Post by jamm on Sept 17, 2019 9:10:54 GMT
Make sure you're using the special More Bloodlines version of CV. I’m using the more bloodlines version of both cv and bugfixes collection and yet the problem persists. |
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Post by Salty_Balls on Sept 18, 2019 8:43:56 GMT
Thanks, I'll take a look at it. Hey, does this mean that you'd be interested in fixing more bugs that we happen to find? Because if you're interested there are still a couple of bugs with slavery around. For example, imprisoning slaves still generates tyranny and it is still impossible to breed slaves under thralldom law. On a side note, this isn't really a bug but don't you think that slaves in general have very high escape chance when you try to imprison them? I mean i don't think it makes sense when they have like 50 or sometimes 60 % chance to escape like regular courtiers.
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Post by Paxter Redwyne on Sept 18, 2019 11:09:42 GMT
Thanks, I'll take a look at it. Hey, does this mean that you'd be interested in fixing more bugs that we happen to find? Because if you're interested there are still a couple of bugs with slavery around. For example, imprisoning slaves still generates tyranny and it is still impossible to breed slaves under thralldom law. On a side note, this isn't really a bug but don't you think that slaves in general have very high escape chance when you try to imprison them? I mean i don't think it makes sense when they have like 50 or sometimes 60 % chance to escape like regular courtiers.
Why would you be able to breed thralls? "Further, thralldom should not be conflated with chattel slavery as it exists in certain of the Free Cities and lands farther east. Unlike slaves, thralls retain certain important rights. A thrall belongs to his captor, and owes him service and obedience, but he is still a man, not property. Thralls cannot be bought or sold. They may own property, marry as they wish, have children. The children of slaves are born into bondage, but the children of thralls are born free; any babe born on one of the islands is considered ironborn, even when both his parents are thralls. Nor may such children be taken from their parents until the age of seven, when most begin an apprenticeship or join a ship's crew." - The World of Ice and Fire - The Iron Islands |
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Post by Salty_Balls on Sept 18, 2019 11:57:01 GMT
Hey, does this mean that you'd be interested in fixing more bugs that we happen to find? Because if you're interested there are still a couple of bugs with slavery around. For example, imprisoning slaves still generates tyranny and it is still impossible to breed slaves under thralldom law. On a side note, this isn't really a bug but don't you think that slaves in general have very high escape chance when you try to imprison them? I mean i don't think it makes sense when they have like 50 or sometimes 60 % chance to escape like regular courtiers.
Why would you be able to breed thralls? "Further, thralldom should not be conflated with chattel slavery as it exists in certain of the Free Cities and lands farther east. Unlike slaves, thralls retain certain important rights. A thrall belongs to his captor, and owes him service and obedience, but he is still a man, not property. Thralls cannot be bought or sold. They may own property, marry as they wish, have children. The children of slaves are born into bondage, but the children of thralls are born free; any babe born on one of the islands is considered ironborn, even when both his parents are thralls. Nor may such children be taken from their parents until the age of seven, when most begin an apprenticeship or join a ship's crew." - The World of Ice and Fire - The Iron Islands Sure but in game mechanicswise it just means that thralls can't get married at all, since you can't marry them regularly because of the slave trait and there being no option to "breed" them like classic slaves. Don't see how you being able to breed them would contradict the said statement either since you can order your regular courtiers to marry any way you want, why would the said thralls be exempted from this? In practice the way things are the thralls actually have more "freedom" and "rights" than regular ironborn courtiers since you can neither marry them off, nor sell them, nor force them to leave your court, nor imprison them either. They are literally untouchable. |
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Post by rufff1 on Sept 18, 2019 12:59:24 GMT
Why would you be able to breed thralls? "Further, thralldom should not be conflated with chattel slavery as it exists in certain of the Free Cities and lands farther east. Unlike slaves, thralls retain certain important rights. A thrall belongs to his captor, and owes him service and obedience, but he is still a man, not property. Thralls cannot be bought or sold. They may own property, marry as they wish, have children. The children of slaves are born into bondage, but the children of thralls are born free; any babe born on one of the islands is considered ironborn, even when both his parents are thralls. Nor may such children be taken from their parents until the age of seven, when most begin an apprenticeship or join a ship's crew." - The World of Ice and Fire - The Iron Islands Sure but in game mechanicswise it just means that thralls can't get married at all, since you can't marry them regularly because of the slave trait and there being no option to "breed" them like classic slaves. Don't see how you being able to breed them would contradict the said statement either since you can order your regular courtiers to marry any way you want, why would the said thralls be exempted from this? In practice the way things are the thralls actually have more "freedom" and "rights" than regular ironborn courtiers since you can neither marry them off, nor sell them, nor force them to leave your court, nor imprison them either. They are literally untouchable. Surely the solution is for thralls to be able to marry amongst themselves through AI "They may ... marry as they wish" - you're not going to arrange a marriage for a thrall you own (and realistically anyone who isn't a thrall won't accept an offer) but they actually have control over their marriage choices so this should be handed over to the AI rather than the owner |
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Post by Salty_Balls on Sept 18, 2019 14:02:44 GMT
Sure but in game mechanicswise it just means that thralls can't get married at all, since you can't marry them regularly because of the slave trait and there being no option to "breed" them like classic slaves. Don't see how you being able to breed them would contradict the said statement either since you can order your regular courtiers to marry any way you want, why would the said thralls be exempted from this? In practice the way things are the thralls actually have more "freedom" and "rights" than regular ironborn courtiers since you can neither marry them off, nor sell them, nor force them to leave your court, nor imprison them either. They are literally untouchable. Surely the solution is for thralls to be able to marry amongst themselves through AI "They may ... marry as they wish" - you're not going to arrange a marriage for a thrall you own (and realistically anyone who isn't a thrall won't accept an offer) but they actually have control over their marriage choices so this should be handed over to the AI rather than the owner But again this will still lead to thralls being more freedom empowered than regular courtiers, since you will still be able to marry none thralls any way you want, but will have to depend on the ai (and we all know how crappy the ai can be in ck2) to manage the thralls in your stead. How about just implementing some modified thrall friendly events where they can decline a breeding partner you choose for them? Anyways this is just us thinking ahead. Atm I think it is pretty clear that the thralls are pretty much broken without the "Breed slave" interaction, and just adding that in would serve as an acceptable quickfix. |
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Post by rufff1 on Sept 18, 2019 14:14:09 GMT
Surely the solution is for thralls to be able to marry amongst themselves through AI "They may ... marry as they wish" - you're not going to arrange a marriage for a thrall you own (and realistically anyone who isn't a thrall won't accept an offer) but they actually have control over their marriage choices so this should be handed over to the AI rather than the owner But again this will still lead to thralls being more freedom empowered than regular courtiers, since you will still be able to marry none thralls any way you want, but will have to depend on the ai (and we all know how crappy the ai can be in ck2) to manage the thralls in your stead. How about just implementing some modified thrall friendly events where they can decline a breeding partner you choose for them? Anyways this is just us thinking ahead. Atm I think it is pretty clear that the thralls are pretty much broken without the "Breed slave" interaction, and just adding that in would serve as an acceptable quickfix. I disagree, thralls are basically like medieval serfs in that their marriages aren't their lord's business - there are no political marriages for serfs like there are for the nobles (and sure you could argue that when it comes to matters of the heart medieval serfs were more free than the mobility but the trade off is being a serf) if you set it so that the AI married two thralls in the same court together now and again the event would probably be easy enough to code and a good reflection of the lore as when it comes to the lore we know two things about thralls: 1. Their marriages are their own business, not their lord/owner's 2. Their status is such that only other thralls/non thrall peasants would decide to marry them neither of this would be reflected by either their lords being able to marry them off as they wished, or breeding them like Essosi slaves |
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Post by Mitusonator on Sept 18, 2019 18:45:03 GMT
Hmmm, I noticed that you made some changes to major rivers, I think that those waters were counted as regular seas on purpose so that not only specific religions could sail them.
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Post by kappa on Sept 19, 2019 11:06:25 GMT
I dont really see why thralls have to get married anyway, it just results in more garbage couriers to look after and slow down games 100's of years in. It's really a non-issue.
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Post by trey on Sept 19, 2019 16:05:34 GMT
Thank you for this mod, it is really great! I have one quick question. If I am using the More Bloodlines compatible version of this mod and look to alter the dependencies to stop crashes of another different .mod file should I put the original "AGOT 2.0 Bugfix" or do I instead put "AGOT 2.0 Bugfix + MB" ?
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Post by Azrael on Sept 19, 2019 18:36:09 GMT
Thank you for this mod, it is really great! I have one quick question. If I am using the More Bloodlines compatible version of this mod and look to alter the dependencies to stop crashes of another different .mod file should I put the original "AGOT 2.0 Bugfix" or do I instead put "AGOT 2.0 Bugfix + MB" ? If you're using the More Bloodlines version, then the latter. |
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Post by indi on Sept 20, 2019 6:54:06 GMT
Getting a crash when using Bye Far East submod. Will verify later that this is indeed accurate with more testing. But as far as I can tell, this occurs with the Bloodlines version of the OP.
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erbkaiser
Modder (CK2)
Taking a long break from modding
Posts: 693
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Post by erbkaiser on Sept 20, 2019 10:42:40 GMT
Try adding the dependency for whichever version of the Bugfix submod you're using to BFE.
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erbkaiser
Modder (CK2)
Taking a long break from modding
Posts: 693
|
Post by erbkaiser on Sept 20, 2019 16:14:29 GMT
Getting a crash when using Bye Far East submod. Will verify later that this is indeed accurate with more testing. But as far as I can tell, this occurs with the Bloodlines version of the OP. Bye Far East is not compatible, it touches the landed_titles file (and others) that Bugfixes also does. You /might/ be able to make it compatible by adding a dependency, either Bugfix to BFE or vice versa. I don't use BFE so I don't know exactly what it does to remove the east.
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