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Post by Dawnbreaker on Sept 4, 2019 2:08:04 GMT
The Ibbenese get the ugly trait more often than others because of how other people perceive them as hideous, yes? However it's very unlikely they'd be as disgusted with each other as other peoples are, but they still have the same opinion of the 'ugly' trait as everyone else. So it seems to me there should be some alteration made to the ugly trait for the Ibbenese to rectify the fact that the person a Westerosi might consider a hideous bearded cretin is actually just to an Ibbenese man an average looking Ibbenese lady. Much like the mark with the Sistermen. So maybe ugly gives +20 attraction opinion to Ibbenese. Frankly though there's a flaw in this because then the Ibbenese will 1. Still have a diplomacy debuff amongst their own kind which they shouldn't have, and 2. There will be no trait for an Ibbenese person even considered ugly by other Ibbenese. So I think the best solution is a specific trait for the Ibbenese separate from ugly (eg. 'Ibbenese') which would give -opinion for non-Ibbenese but not effect the opinion of other Ibbenese. So they still have everyone else looking at them poorly and at the same time there can still be ugly Ibbenese.
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Post by BrotherhoodofSteel on Sept 13, 2019 1:06:59 GMT
I like this idea
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erbkaiser
Modder (CK2)
Taking a long break from modding
Posts: 693
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Post by erbkaiser on Sept 13, 2019 6:57:58 GMT
Good idea, but I wouldn't just limit it to Ibbenese (Neanderthals) but also apply it to Brindled Men (Homo Erectus). Like Ibbenese these are non-standard humans who are seen as ugly, but likely they don't consider themselves ugly.
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Post by Karl on Sept 13, 2019 17:01:04 GMT
The idea that culture determines our conception of beauty has been more or less disproven scientifically by now: even babies only a few months old, who clearly have not been brainwashed by culture, show a preference for more attractive over less attractive people. The Ibbenese are close enough to normal people that they're likely to be the same in this regard. The brindlemen... Well, they may be a different story.
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Post by rufff1 on Sept 13, 2019 18:22:15 GMT
The idea that culture determines our conception of beauty has been more or less disproven scientifically by now: even babies only a few months old, who clearly have not been brainwashed by culture, show a preference for more attractive over less attractive people. The Ibbenese are close enough to normal people that they're likely to be the same in this regard. The brindlemen... Well, they may be a different story. Except the Ibbenese are literally a separate species that tend not to breed with humans and humans think look ugly for the elements of their natural appearance which are common to all Ibbenese
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Post by Karl on Sept 13, 2019 21:06:42 GMT
The idea that culture determines our conception of beauty has been more or less disproven scientifically by now: even babies only a few months old, who clearly have not been brainwashed by culture, show a preference for more attractive over less attractive people. The Ibbenese are close enough to normal people that they're likely to be the same in this regard. The brindlemen... Well, they may be a different story. Except the Ibbenese are literally a separate species that tend not to breed with humans and humans think look ugly for the elements of their natural appearance which are common to all Ibbenese I think they're close enough for what I wrote above.
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Post by rufff1 on Sept 13, 2019 23:36:47 GMT
Except the Ibbenese are literally a separate species that tend not to breed with humans and humans think look ugly for the elements of their natural appearance which are common to all Ibbenese I think they're close enough for what I wrote above. Except the evidence we have is solely from within the Homo sapiens species - when Neanderthals were still around I doubt they thought their own different facial features were ugly and probably thought cro magnon were the weird looking ones (and yes I am aware that there is~3-5% Neanderthal DNA in the modern human genome) if you consider ugliness to be caused by the deviation from the "ideal" set of physical features and beauty the inverse it makes no sense for one species to have a general idea of beauty that was at odds with their species' appearance but applied to another, in much the same way modern humanity tends not to consider large brow ridges on women attractive, but I doubt Neanderthals shared this as if they did none of them would ever breed with other Neanderthals.
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Post by Azrael on Sept 13, 2019 23:46:48 GMT
The entire concept of attractiveness differs not only in different species, but also in different cultures. One example would be, in some cultures, being fat is seen as attractive because it signifies a status of wealth within the society. The question then is do we want to go down the rabbit hole of all of a sudden having to have different attractive traits for every culture/religion in the game?
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aconda
Modder (CK2)
Posts: 376
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Post by aconda on Sept 14, 2019 0:47:31 GMT
There might be some exceptions in it for the uncouth trait for certain species or cultural groups. Perhaps one that removes the -10 attraction opinion to mirror that those different societies view being uncouth as something normal. Ibbenese, giants, wildlings, ironborn?
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Post by Dawnbreaker on Sept 14, 2019 1:26:07 GMT
who clearly have not been brainwashed by culture Ok, I've not heard of that but let's say it's true - that line^ These people ARE brainwashed by culture, they aren't a society of babies. You're an Ibbenese person who lives on Ibben, grows up on Ibben, alongside Ibbenese people. maybe lives your whole life not seeing any non-Ibbenese person. Real life example. The Huns among some other steppe nomadic peoples practiced a thing called head binding which resulted in adults having elongated skulls like those of the alien skulls at the end of the Indiana Jones movie we don't talk about. Search them up and have a look, they're wild, totally alien (except they're human). If you were a Roman soldier and you were being charged by someone who looked like that you might think you were being attacked by a monster. However if you were a Hunnic woman who has grown up where this is done and this is normal, you might think that same guy is hot.
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Post by Salty_Balls on Sept 14, 2019 7:07:16 GMT
I agree that it doesn't make sense for the ibenesse to consider each other ugly, but making a trait just for them would be awfully discriminating since then we would still have similar problems with other people like the above mentioned Bridlemen. So why not introduce special racial traits for all in game races instead? I mean this has been long time coming, since vanilla ck 2 opted to just ignore the racial factor in favor of politically correct blandness in detriment to realistic gameplay. You wouldn't need to introduce that many racial traits anyways though right? I mean we would have 1 for the andals/first men/ironborn/stone dornishmen/most of the free cities peoples (all apart from Myr) another 1 for the valyrians, 1 for the ghiscari/dothraki/sheep people (forgot their name) 1 for the quarthine 1 for the summer islanders/brindlemen/basilisk islanders etc (all the black people essentially with the potential of brindlemen being separate)and lastly 1 for the mongoloid peoples (yiti/leng etc). I recognize that i missed some people but you get the drift I hope.
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