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Post by lordreyne on Jul 30, 2019 19:37:38 GMT
That will sound super weird. But I think, same as the Targaryens and Blackfyres, I do belive that the Velaryons and Celtigars should be able to inbreed. They get normal Andal blood way to quickly. If I start at Aegon's Conquest they only need like 6 Generations to get Andalized, the Celtigars even Quicker since I usually don't marry my Targaryen Princesses to them. I also belive that there should be some sort of High prefference to marry in your own Family and if not in your own then into other High Valyrian Families, when speaking about the Velaryons, Celtigars and Velaryons. If you look at canon, this would make perfect sense. Most Velaryons and Celtigars are described as having valyrian trais, and these cant manifest themselves unless they inbreed. Also I do belive that the Valyrians saw themselves as above the other races which would ofcourse enforce that they preffer to marry eachother.
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Post by stale on Jul 30, 2019 22:16:15 GMT
Another solution would maybe be to make Valyrian gfx inherently strong seed, perhaps? Unlike the Targaryens, the Velaryon and Celtigars aren’t notorious for inbreeding, but I agree that it is annoying... I usually try to keep an eye on them and spawn debutantes if I’m playing as a Targaryen to marry to their sons.
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Post by MacAndrews on Jul 31, 2019 11:54:26 GMT
Haha I'm the same, whenever I see a velaryon that doesn't have the valyrian looks I immediately dna change them  |
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Post by rufff1 on Jul 31, 2019 12:17:03 GMT
I agree - based on the fact that we know Valyrian looks are very easy to dilute - Baelor Breakspear inherited his mother's Dornish hair, Rhaenys the Queen who Never Was looked like a Baratheon after her mother, the "Strong" sons of Rhaenyra all looked like Breakbones, Maekar's sons looking largely Targaryen was probably tied to the fact that he managed to dodged the Martell look his brother had and he married a Dayne who already looked very Valyrian, Bittersteel took after his mother etc etc. Basically Valyrian traits appear to rarely be passed on so I don't think they should be strong seed, yet Celtigars and Velaryons both still have clear Valyrian looks, I'd argue that incest or at least regular cousin marriages + marrying the lesser nobility of the Narrow Sea and nobles from Lys and Myr are probably a cause of this.
I'd suggest making the Celtigars High Valyrian (it never really made sense to me them being Westerosi Valyrian - they are non dragonlord nobility same as the Velaryons and like the Velaryons they have never really embraced Westerosi culture like the Baratheons, Qoheryses etc did), and letting both the Velaryons and the Celtigars inbreed, I'd also try and increase the preference high valyrians have for marrying within their own culture
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Post by stale on Jul 31, 2019 12:50:01 GMT
I agree - based on the fact that we know Valyrian looks are very easy to dilute - Baelor Breakspear inherited his mother's Dornish hair, Rhaenys the Queen who Never Was looked like a Baratheon after her mother, the "Strong" sons of Rhaenyra all looked like Breakbones, Maekar's sons looking largely Targaryen was probably tied to the fact that he managed to dodged the Martell look his brother had and he married a Dayne who already looked very Valyrian, Bittersteel took after his mother etc etc. Basically Valyrian traits appear to rarely be passed on so I don't think they should be strong seed, yet Celtigars and Velaryons both still have clear Valyrian looks, I'd argue that incest or at least regular cousin marriages + marrying the lesser nobility of the Narrow Sea and nobles from Lys and Myr are probably a cause of this. I'd suggest making the Celtigars High Valyrian (it never really made sense to me them being Westerosi Valyrian - they are non dragonlord nobility same as the Velaryons and like the Velaryons they have never really embraced Westerosi culture like the Baratheons, Qoheryses etc did), and letting both the Velaryons and the Celtigars inbreed, I'd also try and increase the preference high valyrians have for marrying within their own culture There are definitely far more instances of discussion of them marrying Essosi nobles or nameless Valyrian-ethnicity wives than incestuous in the lore books. It seems as though whatever mechanic they apparently added that makes it possible to see a Lysene or Volantene bride doesn’t quite work the way it was described (or how I interpreted it). Perhaps the Valyrian and Weeping Lady (and perhaps Rhllor?) should start as cosmopolitan? |
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Post by Rhaenys on Aug 16, 2019 22:32:44 GMT
I agree too, even with the Targaryen it's somewhat difficult to marry Valyrians outside of the Seven Faith, and if Velaryons and Celtigars don't look Andals in the books, it is probably because they marry other Valyrians, either relatives or not.
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Post by dragriff on Aug 18, 2019 3:04:59 GMT
in game rules open marriage rule helps making them marry rhllor, weeping lady, valyrian faith etc... but i agree inbreeding for them and preference like targs and blackfyres have for cousins and sisters
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southpark634
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And who are you, the proud lord said, that I must bow so low?
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Post by southpark634 on Aug 19, 2019 18:04:46 GMT
The Velaryons and Celtigars wouldn't be allowed to inbreed as the Doctrine of Exceptionalism (source: Fire and Blood) only granted the right to free inbreeding to House Targaryen, with the reasoning that they were the only people in the world who had dragons and weren't like other men in this regard. The Velaryons are (mostly, with the exception of a few around the Dance of the Dragons) without dragons, as are the Celtigars. As a result, they'd have to abide by the usual laws for the Faith of the Seven, meaning they wouldn't have free access to inbreeding.
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Post by Rhaenys on Aug 20, 2019 15:53:37 GMT
Yes that's true, I completely forgot about the Exceptionalism.
But they should still be able to marry relatives, if they aren't brothers and sister. After all Tywin did marry his cousin Joanna and the marriage was not considered something pushing the laws of the Faith, for what I remember. Or at least other non-relative Valyrians.
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Post by rufff1 on Aug 20, 2019 16:45:20 GMT
The Velaryons and Celtigars wouldn't be allowed to inbreed as the Doctrine of Exceptionalism (source: Fire and Blood) only granted the right to free inbreeding to House Targaryen, with the reasoning that they were the only people in the world who had dragons and weren't like other men in this regard. The Velaryons are (mostly, with the exception of a few around the Dance of the Dragons) without dragons, as are the Celtigars. As a result, they'd have to abide by the usual laws for the Faith of the Seven, meaning they wouldn't have free access to inbreeding. I fully appreciate that I am about to engage in a theological debate about a made up religion on a point of theology that has less than half a page dedicated to it, buuuuuuuuuuuuuut I'm gonna do it anyway. I would argue that exceptionalism does at the very least apply to the Velaryons. The theological basis is the following "their roots were not in Andalos, but in Valyria of old, where different laws and traditions held sway ... And they flew dragons. They alone of all the men in the world ad been given the power to tame those fearsome beasts once the Doom had come to Valyria" Indeed when Septon Baldrick was confronted by a hedge knight who asked if he could bed his sister the Septon replied "Go to Dragonstone and claim a dragon. If you can do that, ser, I will marry you and your sister yourself". From this I would argue that under the tenets of Exceptionalism once the Velaryons tamed dragons the Doctrine unambiguously applied to them, additionally their large amount of Targaryen blood and status as Valyrian nobility from outside the 40 families gave them a tenuous claim to Exceptionalism applying to them even before they did so. Additionally, Septon Alfyn says "One god made us all, Andals and Valyrians and First Men, but he did not make us all alike. He made the lion and the aurochs as well, both noble beasts, but certain gifts he gave to one and no the other and the lion cannot live as the aurochs, nor an aurochs as a lion. For you to bed your sister would be a grevious sin, ser ... but you are not the blood of the dragon, no more than I am. What they do is what they have always done, and it is not for us to judge them." In this sermon we see the distinction is placed between the Andals/First Men and the Valyrians with the Valyrians, or the blood of the dragon as the thing apart, this is where the creative ambiguity that would allow Celtigars and non dragon riding Velaryons to argue the case - does the blood of the dragon solely apply to House Targaryen or to other noble Valyrian houses such as their own. Like most theology this is tricky and open to debate. However, we can point to non Targaryens who seem to have made this argument, namely the Great Bastards of Aegon the Unworthy. Now obviously they were the children of a Targaryen but the proximity of blood was just as applicable to the Velaryons and it highlights that the focus was on noble Valyrian identity not surname. Numerous Blackfyres seem to have engaged in sibling marriages, and Daemon himself desired his half sister for a bride with the objections being political not religious despite him NOT being a Targaryen, you also have Bittersteel and Bloodraven desiring Shiera Seastar (now yes there is debate on whether they were Targaryens or founders of their own houses but they still seem useful examples). So in conclusion there would be a sound theological basis for a Velaryon to claim Exceptionalism applied to them once their house had tamed dragons, for the Celtigars it is more tenuous but there would be grounds for them to argue the point. |
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southpark634
Member
And who are you, the proud lord said, that I must bow so low?
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Post by southpark634 on Aug 20, 2019 17:42:19 GMT
The Velaryons and Celtigars wouldn't be allowed to inbreed as the Doctrine of Exceptionalism (source: Fire and Blood) only granted the right to free inbreeding to House Targaryen, with the reasoning that they were the only people in the world who had dragons and weren't like other men in this regard. The Velaryons are (mostly, with the exception of a few around the Dance of the Dragons) without dragons, as are the Celtigars. As a result, they'd have to abide by the usual laws for the Faith of the Seven, meaning they wouldn't have free access to inbreeding. I fully appreciate that I am about to engage in a theological debate about a made up religion on a point of theology that has less than half a page dedicated to it, buuuuuuuuuuuuuut I'm gonna do it anyway. I would argue that exceptionalism does at the very least apply to the Velaryons. The theological basis is the following "their roots were not in Andalos, but in Valyria of old, where different laws and traditions held sway ... And they flew dragons. They alone of all the men in the world ad been given the power to tame those fearsome beasts once the Doom had come to Valyria" Indeed when Septon Baldrick was confronted by a hedge knight who asked if he could bed his sister the Septon replied "Go to Dragonstone and claim a dragon. If you can do that, ser, I will marry you and your sister yourself". From this I would argue that under the tenets of Exceptionalism once the Velaryons tamed dragons the Doctrine unambiguously applied to them, additionally their large amount of Targaryen blood and status as Valyrian nobility from outside the 40 families gave them a tenuous claim to Exceptionalism applying to them even before they did so. Additionally, Septon Alfyn says "One god made us all, Andals and Valyrians and First Men, but he did not make us all alike. He made the lion and the aurochs as well, both noble beasts, but certain gifts he gave to one and no the other and the lion cannot live as the aurochs, nor an aurochs as a lion. For you to bed your sister would be a grevious sin, ser ... but you are not the blood of the dragon, no more than I am. What they do is what they have always done, and it is not for us to judge them." In this sermon we see the distinction is placed between the Andals/First Men and the Valyrians with the Valyrians, or the blood of the dragon as the thing apart, this is where the creative ambiguity that would allow Celtigars and non dragon riding Velaryons to argue the case - does the blood of the dragon solely apply to House Targaryen or to other noble Valyrian houses such as their own. Like most theology this is tricky and open to debate. However, we can point to non Targaryens who seem to have made this argument, namely the Great Bastards of Aegon the Unworthy. Now obviously they were the children of a Targaryen but the proximity of blood was just as applicable to the Velaryons and it highlights that the focus was on noble Valyrian identity not surname. Numerous Blackfyres seem to have engaged in sibling marriages, and Daemon himself desired his half sister for a bride with the objections being political not religious despite him NOT being a Targaryen, you also have Bittersteel and Bloodraven desiring Shiera Seastar (now yes there is debate on whether they were Targaryens or founders of their own houses but they still seem useful examples). So in conclusion there would be a sound theological basis for a Velaryon to claim Exceptionalism applied to them once their house had tamed dragons, for the Celtigars it is more tenuous but there would be grounds for them to argue the point. Perhaps the Velaryons could CLAIM that they should be have Exceptionalism - but that doesn't mean the Faith would accept it. The point is, House Targaryen were the royal house who would have had the ability to destroy the Faith with their armies and their dragons, the Velaryons... not so much. Admittedly there is a more than valid theological basis for the Velaryons to claim Exceptionalism, but the doctrine itself was applied only to House Targaryen. The Blackfyre issue is an interesting one. You could argue that the Blackfyres were able to practice sibling marriage because they weren't living in Westeros for most of their existence, meaning that they wouldn't have been subject to the will of the High Septon. One could also argue that the Doctrine was applied to the Targaryen cadet branches (whether you want to include Bloodraven and Bittersteel as "cadet branches" is up to you), though no source from GRRM (currently) says that the doctrine was applied to the branches. While the Velaryons did have their roots in Old Valyria, as did the Celtigars, they were nowhere near as powerful as House Targaryen. When Jaehaerys I worked out the doctrine with the Faith, he only made the exception for House Targaryen (at least we're told as such, nothing mentions an exception for houses Velaryon or Celtigar). As a result, LEGALLY, inbreeding wouldn't be allowed for them - though they probably could claim the right to given the theological aspects of the Doctrine of Exceptionalism. They'd still be against the Faith with incestuous marriages as they're not Targaryens - the Doctrine was based on the surname, not the blood. |
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Post by rufff1 on Aug 20, 2019 18:04:27 GMT
I fully appreciate that I am about to engage in a theological debate about a made up religion on a point of theology that has less than half a page dedicated to it, buuuuuuuuuuuuuut I'm gonna do it anyway. I would argue that exceptionalism does at the very least apply to the Velaryons. The theological basis is the following "their roots were not in Andalos, but in Valyria of old, where different laws and traditions held sway ... And they flew dragons. They alone of all the men in the world ad been given the power to tame those fearsome beasts once the Doom had come to Valyria" Indeed when Septon Baldrick was confronted by a hedge knight who asked if he could bed his sister the Septon replied "Go to Dragonstone and claim a dragon. If you can do that, ser, I will marry you and your sister yourself". From this I would argue that under the tenets of Exceptionalism once the Velaryons tamed dragons the Doctrine unambiguously applied to them, additionally their large amount of Targaryen blood and status as Valyrian nobility from outside the 40 families gave them a tenuous claim to Exceptionalism applying to them even before they did so. Additionally, Septon Alfyn says "One god made us all, Andals and Valyrians and First Men, but he did not make us all alike. He made the lion and the aurochs as well, both noble beasts, but certain gifts he gave to one and no the other and the lion cannot live as the aurochs, nor an aurochs as a lion. For you to bed your sister would be a grevious sin, ser ... but you are not the blood of the dragon, no more than I am. What they do is what they have always done, and it is not for us to judge them." In this sermon we see the distinction is placed between the Andals/First Men and the Valyrians with the Valyrians, or the blood of the dragon as the thing apart, this is where the creative ambiguity that would allow Celtigars and non dragon riding Velaryons to argue the case - does the blood of the dragon solely apply to House Targaryen or to other noble Valyrian houses such as their own. Like most theology this is tricky and open to debate. However, we can point to non Targaryens who seem to have made this argument, namely the Great Bastards of Aegon the Unworthy. Now obviously they were the children of a Targaryen but the proximity of blood was just as applicable to the Velaryons and it highlights that the focus was on noble Valyrian identity not surname. Numerous Blackfyres seem to have engaged in sibling marriages, and Daemon himself desired his half sister for a bride with the objections being political not religious despite him NOT being a Targaryen, you also have Bittersteel and Bloodraven desiring Shiera Seastar (now yes there is debate on whether they were Targaryens or founders of their own houses but they still seem useful examples). So in conclusion there would be a sound theological basis for a Velaryon to claim Exceptionalism applied to them once their house had tamed dragons, for the Celtigars it is more tenuous but there would be grounds for them to argue the point. Perhaps the Velaryons could CLAIM that they should be have Exceptionalism - but that doesn't mean the Faith would accept it. The point is, House Targaryen were the royal house who would have had the ability to destroy the Faith with their armies and their dragons, the Velaryons... not so much. Admittedly there is a more than valid theological basis for the Velaryons to claim Exceptionalism, but the doctrine itself was applied only to House Targaryen. The Blackfyre issue is an interesting one. You could argue that the Blackfyres were able to practice sibling marriage because they weren't living in Westeros for most of their existence, meaning that they wouldn't have been subject to the will of the High Septon. One could also argue that the Doctrine was applied to the Targaryen cadet branches (whether you want to include Bloodraven and Bittersteel as "cadet branches" is up to you), though no source from GRRM (currently) says that the doctrine was applied to the branches. While the Velaryons did have their roots in Old Valyria, as did the Celtigars, they were nowhere near as powerful as House Targaryen. When Jaehaerys I worked out the doctrine with the Faith, he only made the exception for House Targaryen (at least we're told as such, nothing mentions an exception for houses Velaryon or Celtigar). As a result, LEGALLY, inbreeding wouldn't be allowed for them - though they probably could claim the right to given the theological aspects of the Doctrine of Exceptionalism. They'd still be against the Faith with incestuous marriages as they're not Targaryens - the Doctrine was based on the surname, not the blood. I stand by the Septon Baldrick precedent though ("claim a dragon. If you can do that, ser, I will marry you and your sister yourself"), the Doctine of Exceptionalism has at its root the ability to ride dragons amongst those of Valyrian origin, yes at that time the Velaryons didn't have dragonriders, but a generation later they did and also were in the running for the Iron Throne - if Rhaenyra had won the DoD and here Velaryon (at least officially) sons had survived they would surely have practiced sibling marriage as their Targaryen forebears had |
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southpark634
Member
And who are you, the proud lord said, that I must bow so low?
Posts: 42
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Post by southpark634 on Aug 20, 2019 18:07:25 GMT
Perhaps the Velaryons could CLAIM that they should be have Exceptionalism - but that doesn't mean the Faith would accept it. The point is, House Targaryen were the royal house who would have had the ability to destroy the Faith with their armies and their dragons, the Velaryons... not so much. Admittedly there is a more than valid theological basis for the Velaryons to claim Exceptionalism, but the doctrine itself was applied only to House Targaryen. The Blackfyre issue is an interesting one. You could argue that the Blackfyres were able to practice sibling marriage because they weren't living in Westeros for most of their existence, meaning that they wouldn't have been subject to the will of the High Septon. One could also argue that the Doctrine was applied to the Targaryen cadet branches (whether you want to include Bloodraven and Bittersteel as "cadet branches" is up to you), though no source from GRRM (currently) says that the doctrine was applied to the branches. While the Velaryons did have their roots in Old Valyria, as did the Celtigars, they were nowhere near as powerful as House Targaryen. When Jaehaerys I worked out the doctrine with the Faith, he only made the exception for House Targaryen (at least we're told as such, nothing mentions an exception for houses Velaryon or Celtigar). As a result, LEGALLY, inbreeding wouldn't be allowed for them - though they probably could claim the right to given the theological aspects of the Doctrine of Exceptionalism. They'd still be against the Faith with incestuous marriages as they're not Targaryens - the Doctrine was based on the surname, not the blood. I stand by the Septon Baldrick precedent though ("claim a dragon. If you can do that, ser, I will marry you and your sister yourself"), the Doctine of Exceptionalism has at its root the ability to ride dragons amongst those of Valyrian origin, yes at that time the Velaryons didn't have dragonriders, but a generation later they did and also were in the running for the Iron Throne - if Rhaenyra had won the DoD and here Velaryon (at least officially) sons had survived they would surely have practiced sibling marriage as their Targaryen forebears had It's possible that Septon Baldrick's remark was supposed to be sarcastic, as the Hedge Knight couldn't possibly have done this (unless he was actually a dragonseed, though this is unlikely). I imagine that if the Velaryons HAD come to the throne, they'd have been able to alter the Doctrine to include their house. As it happens, they didn't come to the throne and so it wouldn't have been altered. |
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Post by Rhaenys on Aug 20, 2019 19:29:09 GMT
Just to add my little contribution to the debate, all the children of Aegon the Unworthy were legitimized by him, so they should legally considered as being Targaryen and the Exceptionalism should be applied to them.
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Post by argotin on Aug 21, 2019 14:12:40 GMT
I agree - based on the fact that we know Valyrian looks are very easy to dilute - Baelor Breakspear inherited his mother's Dornish hair, Rhaenys the Queen who Never Was looked like a Baratheon after her mother, the "Strong" sons of Rhaenyra all looked like Breakbones, Maekar's sons looking largely Targaryen was probably tied to the fact that he managed to dodged the Martell look his brother had and he married a Dayne who already looked very Valyrian, Bittersteel took after his mother etc etc. Basically Valyrian traits appear to rarely be passed on so I don't think they should be strong seed, yet Celtigars and Velaryons both still have clear Valyrian looks, I'd argue that incest or at least regular cousin marriages + marrying the lesser nobility of the Narrow Sea and nobles from Lys and Myr are probably a cause of this. I'd suggest making the Celtigars High Valyrian (it never really made sense to me them being Westerosi Valyrian - they are non dragonlord nobility same as the Velaryons and like the Velaryons they have never really embraced Westerosi culture like the Baratheons, Qoheryses etc did), and letting both the Velaryons and the Celtigars inbreed, I'd also try and increase the preference high valyrians have for marrying within their own culture That's not entirely true, sometimes Valyrian looks overcome "stronger" genes. Duncan the Small was black-haired like his mother but other sons of Aegon V were silver-haired. Father of Aegon, Maekar also had Valyrian looks though his mother was Myriah Martell. At last, the Young Griff looks like Valyrian too, and his mother was Martell. We should assume that Valyrian blood is somewhat magic(something new) and it overcomes "stronger" genes. |
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