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Post by rufff1 on Apr 17, 2019 22:00:27 GMT
Out of interest what happened to Ser Medrick Snow in the new update - the bastard knight in white harbour with 3 mermaids on his sigil - I always found him quite fun, especially with the wittiness of the sigil (mother a Manderly so the mermaid, father a woolfield so the 3 of them and the purple field)? Sad to see him go
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Post by Paxter Redwyne on Apr 17, 2019 22:16:51 GMT
I think he may have been removed on accident, I have been changing a lot in history files, I shall add him back. Perhaps I'll make him legitimate child of Woolfield and Manderly rather than bastard - Woolfields seem to have close ties with Manderlys as Wyman's heir is married to a Woolfield.
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Post by rufff1 on Apr 17, 2019 22:35:44 GMT
I think he may have been removed on accident, I have been changing a lot in history files, I shall add him back. Perhaps I'll make him legitimate child of Woolfield and Manderly rather than bastard - Woolfields seem to have close ties with Manderlys as Wyman's heir is married to a Woolfield. Kl I spotted he was missing whilst updating MBS history files lol, you're right definitely close ties between Manderlys and Woolfield, but surely the cadet house is because he's a bastard? If not he'd be a normal Woolfield rather than a separate house - he's not landed? Although could you give him a wife and child - he's so old by Wot5K I always have to use console commands to save his dynasty
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Post by Paxter Redwyne on Apr 17, 2019 22:42:12 GMT
I think he may have been removed on accident, I have been changing a lot in history files, I shall add him back. Perhaps I'll make him legitimate child of Woolfield and Manderly rather than bastard - Woolfields seem to have close ties with Manderlys as Wyman's heir is married to a Woolfield. Kl I spotted he was missing whilst updating MBS history files lol, you're right definitely close ties between Manderlys and Woolfield, but surely the cadet house is because he's a bastard? If not he'd be a normal Woolfield rather than a separate house - he's not landed? Although could you give him a wife and child - he's so old by Wot5K I always have to use console commands to save his dynasty Ah, you're right he wouldn't have his unique Coat of Arms if he was legitimate.
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Post by foxwillow on Apr 17, 2019 23:55:47 GMT
i'm unfamiliar with this character. link?
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Post by rufff1 on Apr 18, 2019 0:09:24 GMT
If memory serves when Davos visits White Harbour in Lord Manderly's court he sees a knight with that sigil standing next to lord Locke but I might be misremembering
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Post by Paxter Redwyne on Apr 18, 2019 7:46:44 GMT
If memory serves when Davos visits White Harbour in Lord Manderly's court he sees a knight with that sigil standing next to lord Locke but I might be misremembering No, it was the old knight who declared to Merrett Frey that he first has to fight him if he wants to kill Lord Wyman during Feast of Winterfell. Also it wasn't Lord Locke but some other Locke on Manderly's court. This way only appearance of knight with three silver mermaids on violet.
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Post by Paxter Redwyne on Apr 18, 2019 13:57:10 GMT
Since we don't know anything about the guy besides one sentence describing his coat-of-arms, I think we'll make him landed knight instead - Manderlys bannermen included a dozen petty lords and a hundred landed knights. We have zero knowledge of his parentage after all.
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Post by lordcorvocrowlover on Apr 18, 2019 20:59:40 GMT
Are Karstarks bastards?
In game cadets come mostly, if not entirely, from bastards but a cadet is actually a younger son who will not inherit.
Also in ASOIAF bastards who do not create a new sigil altogether use their family one with colors reversed and sometimes also with a bend sinister.
This guy, who I first suggested some months ago if not years that is, has the colors unreversed. Mermaid instead of Merman would suggest mother, not the father, was Manderly.
Since I’m at it; Vikary should be descended from a bastard daughter of a Reyne. With the male quarters being red boarheads, and Reyne and Redtusk being on the same side in Blackfyre rebellion, it’s very likely Vikarys are descended from Redtusk. Redtusk or a son of his probably married a bastard.
Another house; Cassels, could be descended from a bastard Stark Judging by their sigil, reversed Stark colors. You can compare it to sigil of Oldflowers’ who are obviously descended from bastards as can be seen with the name. Ten Wolf’s head could mean tenth children or at least tenth in line to inherit (if he wasn’t a bastard) You can see the personal sigils of Garlan and Loras for comparison; 2 and 3 roses instead of a single one.
Another; Flint of the mountain’s sigil could just be black and gray bars; current sigil in the game with a hand on it is actually Finger Flint sigil, WW has an entirely different one.
Yet another; Lightfoots could be cadets to Woodfoots; See the naming trend in Lannister Cadets Lanny, Lanntell, etc. And Darklyn cadets Darke, Dargood, etc.
One more for the road; If you feel like adding a non-canon cadet house for the fun of it, there’s a very nice sigil in the game coas; a sun like the Karstarks’ one with a rose in it. A a very nice sigil for a Tyrell-Karstark union cadet.
And another one for the road; Tarths are most likely an Evenstsar daughter marrying Ser Gallador of Morne or a descendant. Evenstar is their ancient title and Fallador is an Andal from the now ruined castle of Morne locatwd on the eastern side of the isle.
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Post by rufff1 on Apr 18, 2019 22:12:44 GMT
Are Karstarks bastards? In game cadets come mostly, if not entirely, from bastards but a cadet is actually a younger son who will not inherit. Also in ASOIAF bastards who do not create a new sigil altogether use their family one with colors reversed and sometimes also with a bend sinister. This guy, who I first suggested some months ago if not years that is, has the colors unreversed. Mermaid instead of Merman would suggest mother, not the father, was Manderly. Since I’m at it; Vikary should be descended from a bastard daughter of a Reyne. With the male quarters being red boarheads, and Reyne and Redtusk being on the same side in Blackfyre rebellion, it’s very likely Vikarys are descended from Redtusk. Redtusk or a son of his probably married a bastard. Another house; Cassels, could be descended from a bastard Stark Judging by their sigil, reversed Stark colors. You can compare it to sigil of Oldflowers’ who are obviously descended from bastards as can be seen with the name. Ten Wolf’s head could mean tenth children or at least tenth in line to inherit (if he wasn’t a bastard) You can see the personal sigils of Garlan and Loras for comparison; 2 and 3 roses instead of a single one. Another; Flint of the mountain’s sigil could just be black and gray bars; current sigil in the game with a hand on it is actually Finger Flint sigil, WW has an entirely different one. Yet another; Lightfoots could be cadets to Woodfoots; See the naming trend in Lannister Cadets Lanny, Lanntell, etc. And Darklyn cadets Darke, Dargood, etc. One more for the road; If you feel like adding a non-canon cadet house for the fun of it, there’s a very nice sigil in the game coas; a sun like the Karstarks’ one with a rose in it. A a very nice sigil for a Tyrell-Karstark union cadet. And another one for the road; Tarths are most likely an Evenstsar daughter marrying Ser Gallador of Morne or a descendant. Evenstar is their ancient title and Fallador is an Andal from the now ruined castle of Morne locatwd on the eastern side of the isle. This is incorrect. For game purposes a cadet house and a junior branches are different things. A junior branch is a branch of a house that hold lands but is not the head of the house. The cadet house is when a branch drifts so far away from the main branch it acquires a new identity of its own. To use a ASOIAF example House Karatark is a cadet house which was originally a junior branch of house Stark. When Karlon Stark was given lands his surname was Stark and his children's surname was Stark from the junior branch of the House, the Starks of Karlon's hold. As time passed the identity of the Karhold Starks diverged from the main branch to the extent that they acquired a new identity and became Karstarks. This is a contrast to say the Targaryens of Summerhall, when Maekar was given Summerhall he established a junior branch of House Targaryen with Daeron the Drunkard as his heir, with Baelor to inherit the throne, but his surname remained Targaryen, it was a junior branch and if those higher up the succession not died the branch would remain a separate branch from the main one. Now perhaps over time the Summerhall Targaryens would have become Summergaryens or something but it would have required a large amount of time to obtain a unique and distinct identity. To now turn to an example from real life, in the British royal family Prince William is the Duke of Cambridge and he and his family are referred to as the Cambridges, Prince Harry is the Duke of Sussex and his family is referred to as the Sussexs, and assuming nothing happens to William and his children Harry's family will be a junior branch of the house of Windsor, but no one would think of it as a cadet house currently, meanwhile the family of the Dukes of Kent, the Queen's cousins could easily be described as a cadet branch as it's fairly far removed from the main line and has a unique identity. In time the Sussexs will be a cadet branch but probably not until Harry's grandkids hold the title, right now their identity is a junior part of the main line. Now bastards is where things change. Bastards cannot inherit their father's name. This is why Ramsay was not Ramsay Bolton until he was legitimised. If he was granted lands but not legitimised he could not legally call himself Ramsay Bolton, his options would be Snow or some new name of his own devising. Hence the option to grant a cadet house to bastards exists as if they are unlegitimised they would just get a random autogen house. Now I'm all for a mechanic where if a junior branch has a title of their own for say 4 generations they have the option to assert their unique identity and found a cadet house, but if say Garlan gets his hands on Brightwater Keep his surname will not suddenly stop being Tyrell. I think a further complication to the discussion of cadet houses comes about from heraldry, and the assumption that a different sigil means a cadet house. This is not correct. GRRM is a big fan of heraldic designs and embraces the concept (far from universally applied in medieval heraldry) that no two individuals can't bear the same arms at any one time, a concept that requires offspring to differentiate their arms from those of their fathers and siblings. This is why ever Targaryens entered into the lists at the Tourney at Ashford meadow has their own unique sigil, this is not to say that they are all cadet houses, especially considering that one of the people with a differences sigil is the firstborn son to the heir to the throne. If one of them became head of the house they would then default to the traditional arms. A further confusion is how one marks bastardy. As you say bastardy can be marked by bends sinister, reversed colours etc, but any differentiated sigil fulfills the requirements of a bastard making a new cadet for themselves. The three mermaids sigil is clearly different enough from the Manderly and Woolfield sigils to have no risk of confusion, bastardy does not have to be marked by reversed colours or a bend sinister, ser Franklyn Flowers marks his status as a bastard Fossoway by using a brown apple for example. If your only options as a bastard are a bend sinister or reversed colours you're screwed if a person has more than two male bastards lol. A few further notes: As you say the mermaid sigil suggests a Manderly mother, but this is already the case in the mod. Vikary's are already related to the reigns and Crakehalls. As we don't know they were descended from Redtusk and the Reynes and Crakehalls are from the same region there will have been other unions between the two and why write the Vikarys out of earlier start dates. Cassels as Stark descendants is interesting sure, but considering ever time someone meets a Karstark they go "you know Stark and Karstarks share the same blood right?" The fact that over the multiple books that Cassels have appeared no one ever pointed out that they were related just makes it seem very implausible. After all they are longstanding supporters of the Starks and live next to the Wolfswood, taking wolfsheads as a sigil has other plausible explanations - i.e. No one says that Reynes are clearly a cadet house of House Lannister because they also have lions on their sigil. The Lightfoots are quite plausibly related to the Woodfoots but if they are you'd have to wonder why they aren't asking for Bear Island back all the time which suggests they're not or even they have forgotten the connection I have a lot of sympathy on the Galladon of Morne side of things, and in More Bloodlines I made Galladon the progenitor of the Tartsh, but considering Galladon is a folk hero that basically everyone on Tarth claims descent from I don't think it was as simple as him marrying the daughters of the Evenstar (addintionally from my point of view the Evenstar is just a title/nickname, not the house name of the old Tarth kings, Tarth sounds like a first mannish name and the island appears to have been called Tarth even in the age of the First Men, so I personally don't think they are separate houses but that's a different discussion).
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Post by foxwillow on Apr 19, 2019 0:17:39 GMT
Are Karstarks bastards? In game cadets come mostly, if not entirely, from bastards but a cadet is actually a younger son who will not inherit. Also in ASOIAF bastards who do not create a new sigil altogether use their family one with colors reversed and sometimes also with a bend sinister. This guy, who I first suggested some months ago if not years that is, has the colors unreversed. Mermaid instead of Merman would suggest mother, not the father, was Manderly. Since I’m at it; Vikary should be descended from a bastard daughter of a Reyne. With the male quarters being red boarheads, and Reyne and Redtusk being on the same side in Blackfyre rebellion, it’s very likely Vikarys are descended from Redtusk. Redtusk or a son of his probably married a bastard. Another house; Cassels, could be descended from a bastard Stark Judging by their sigil, reversed Stark colors. You can compare it to sigil of Oldflowers’ who are obviously descended from bastards as can be seen with the name. Ten Wolf’s head could mean tenth children or at least tenth in line to inherit (if he wasn’t a bastard) You can see the personal sigils of Garlan and Loras for comparison; 2 and 3 roses instead of a single one. Another; Flint of the mountain’s sigil could just be black and gray bars; current sigil in the game with a hand on it is actually Finger Flint sigil, WW has an entirely different one. Yet another; Lightfoots could be cadets to Woodfoots; See the naming trend in Lannister Cadets Lanny, Lanntell, etc. And Darklyn cadets Darke, Dargood, etc. One more for the road; If you feel like adding a non-canon cadet house for the fun of it, there’s a very nice sigil in the game coas; a sun like the Karstarks’ one with a rose in it. A a very nice sigil for a Tyrell-Karstark union cadet. And another one for the road; Tarths are most likely an Evenstsar daughter marrying Ser Gallador of Morne or a descendant. Evenstar is their ancient title and Fallador is an Andal from the now ruined castle of Morne locatwd on the eastern side of the isle. This is incorrect. For game purposes a cadet house and a junior branches are different things. A junior branch is a branch of a house that hold lands but is not the head of the house. The cadet house is when a branch drifts so far away from the main branch it acquires a new identity of its own. To use a ASOIAF example House Karatark is a cadet house which was originally a junior branch of house Stark. When Karlon Stark was given lands his surname was Stark and his children's surname was Stark from the junior branch of the House, the Starks of Karlon's hold. As time passed the identity of the Karhold Starks diverged from the main branch to the extent that they acquired a new identity and became Karstarks. This is a contrast to say the Targaryens of Summerhall, when Maekar was given Summerhall he established a junior branch of House Targaryen with Daeron the Drunkard as his heir, with Baelor to inherit the throne, but his surname remained Targaryen, it was a junior branch and if those higher up the succession not died the branch would remain a separate branch from the main one. Now perhaps over time the Summerhall Targaryens would have become Summergaryens or something but it would have required a large amount of time to obtain a unique and distinct identity. To now turn to an example from real life, in the British royal family Prince William is the Duke of Cambridge and he and his family are referred to as the Cambridges, Prince Harry is the Duke of Sussex and his family is referred to as the Sussexs, and assuming nothing happens to William and his children Harry's family will be a junior branch of the house of Windsor, but no one would think of it as a cadet house currently, meanwhile the family of the Dukes of Kent, the Queen's cousins could easily be described as a cadet branch as it's fairly far removed from the main line and has a unique identity. In time the Sussexs will be a cadet branch but probably not until Harry's grandkids hold the title, right now their identity is a junior part of the main line. Now bastards is where things change. Bastards cannot inherit their father's name. This is why Ramsay was not Ramsay Bolton until he was legitimised. If he was granted lands but not legitimised he could not legally call himself Ramsay Bolton, his options would be Snow or some new name of his own devising. Hence the option to grant a cadet house to bastards exists as if they are unlegitimised they would just get a random autogen house. Now I'm all for a mechanic where if a junior branch has a title of their own for say 4 generations they have the option to assert their unique identity and found a cadet house, but if say Garlan gets his hands on Brightwater Keep his surname will not suddenly stop being Tyrell. I think a further complication to the discussion of cadet houses comes about from heraldry, and the assumption that a different sigil means a cadet house. This is not correct. GRRM is a big fan of heraldic designs and embraces the concept (far from universally applied in medieval heraldry) that no two individuals can't bear the same arms at any one time, a concept that requires offspring to differentiate their arms from those of their fathers and siblings. This is why ever Targaryens entered into the lists at the Tourney at Ashford meadow has their own unique sigil, this is not to say that they are all cadet houses, especially considering that one of the people with a differences sigil is the firstborn son to the heir to the throne. If one of them became head of the house they would then default to the traditional arms. A further confusion is how one marks bastardy. As you say bastardy can be marked by bends sinister, reversed colours etc, but any differentiated sigil fulfills the requirements of a bastard making a new cadet for themselves. The three mermaids sigil is clearly different enough from the Manderly and Woolfield sigils to have no risk of confusion, bastardy does not have to be marked by reversed colours or a bend sinister, ser Franklyn Flowers marks his status as a bastard Fossoway by using a brown apple for example. If your only options as a bastard are a bend sinister or reversed colours you're screwed if a person has more than two male bastards lol. A few further notes: As you say the mermaid sigil suggests a Manderly mother, but this is already the case in the mod. Vikary's are already related to the reigns and Crakehalls. As we don't know they were descended from Redtusk and the Reynes and Crakehalls are from the same region there will have been other unions between the two and why write the Vikarys out of earlier start dates. Cassels as Stark descendants is interesting sure, but considering ever time someone meets a Karstark they go "you know Stark and Karstarks share the same blood right?" The fact that over the multiple books that Cassels have appeared no one ever pointed out that they were related just makes it seem very implausible. After all they are longstanding supporters of the Starks and live next to the Wolfswood, taking wolfsheads as a sigil has other plausible explanations - i.e. No one says that Reynes are clearly a cadet house of House Lannister because they also have lions on their sigil. The Lightfoots are quite plausibly related to the Woodfoots but if they are you'd have to wonder why they aren't asking for Bear Island back all the time which suggests they're not or even they have forgotten the connection I have a lot of sympathy on the Galladon of Morne side of things, and in More Bloodlines I made Galladon the progenitor of the Tartsh, but considering Galladon is a folk hero that basically everyone on Tarth claims descent from I don't think it was as simple as him marrying the daughters of the Evenstar (addintionally from my point of view the Evenstar is just a title/nickname, not the house name of the old Tarth kings, Tarth sounds like a first mannish name and the island appears to have been called Tarth even in the age of the First Men, so I personally don't think they are separate houses but that's a different discussion). you say he's incorrect but he really generally isn't about a lot. the question of the karstarks was not sincere -- he was using it as an example. the unnamed knight in question we have 1 sentence (as paxter says). nothing about him. his size. his looks really. just his sigil. and we know a personal sigil in ASOIAF means very little. they can be reversed or altered family sigil or entirely different. Quentyn Ball for example. Euron as well. So 3 Silver Mermaids on purple... Manderly is a white merman (white and silver are different tinctures in ASOIAF) and no mention of tridents. When the Manderlys left the reach they were still of much influence. It's more likely that this un-named Medrick's family were just knights in loyal service to the Manderlys than he is a bastard with complicated background just because he has 3 mer-creatures. Paxter, kuczaja and I have been debating Medrick and he's likely to return, but possibly of his own house with unknown background.
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Post by rufff1 on Apr 19, 2019 8:15:57 GMT
This is incorrect. For game purposes a cadet house and a junior branches are different things. A junior branch is a branch of a house that hold lands but is not the head of the house. The cadet house is when a branch drifts so far away from the main branch it acquires a new identity of its own. To use a ASOIAF example House Karatark is a cadet house which was originally a junior branch of house Stark. When Karlon Stark was given lands his surname was Stark and his children's surname was Stark from the junior branch of the House, the Starks of Karlon's hold. As time passed the identity of the Karhold Starks diverged from the main branch to the extent that they acquired a new identity and became Karstarks. This is a contrast to say the Targaryens of Summerhall, when Maekar was given Summerhall he established a junior branch of House Targaryen with Daeron the Drunkard as his heir, with Baelor to inherit the throne, but his surname remained Targaryen, it was a junior branch and if those higher up the succession not died the branch would remain a separate branch from the main one. Now perhaps over time the Summerhall Targaryens would have become Summergaryens or something but it would have required a large amount of time to obtain a unique and distinct identity. To now turn to an example from real life, in the British royal family Prince William is the Duke of Cambridge and he and his family are referred to as the Cambridges, Prince Harry is the Duke of Sussex and his family is referred to as the Sussexs, and assuming nothing happens to William and his children Harry's family will be a junior branch of the house of Windsor, but no one would think of it as a cadet house currently, meanwhile the family of the Dukes of Kent, the Queen's cousins could easily be described as a cadet branch as it's fairly far removed from the main line and has a unique identity. In time the Sussexs will be a cadet branch but probably not until Harry's grandkids hold the title, right now their identity is a junior part of the main line. Now bastards is where things change. Bastards cannot inherit their father's name. This is why Ramsay was not Ramsay Bolton until he was legitimised. If he was granted lands but not legitimised he could not legally call himself Ramsay Bolton, his options would be Snow or some new name of his own devising. Hence the option to grant a cadet house to bastards exists as if they are unlegitimised they would just get a random autogen house. Now I'm all for a mechanic where if a junior branch has a title of their own for say 4 generations they have the option to assert their unique identity and found a cadet house, but if say Garlan gets his hands on Brightwater Keep his surname will not suddenly stop being Tyrell. I think a further complication to the discussion of cadet houses comes about from heraldry, and the assumption that a different sigil means a cadet house. This is not correct. GRRM is a big fan of heraldic designs and embraces the concept (far from universally applied in medieval heraldry) that no two individuals can't bear the same arms at any one time, a concept that requires offspring to differentiate their arms from those of their fathers and siblings. This is why ever Targaryens entered into the lists at the Tourney at Ashford meadow has their own unique sigil, this is not to say that they are all cadet houses, especially considering that one of the people with a differences sigil is the firstborn son to the heir to the throne. If one of them became head of the house they would then default to the traditional arms. A further confusion is how one marks bastardy. As you say bastardy can be marked by bends sinister, reversed colours etc, but any differentiated sigil fulfills the requirements of a bastard making a new cadet for themselves. The three mermaids sigil is clearly different enough from the Manderly and Woolfield sigils to have no risk of confusion, bastardy does not have to be marked by reversed colours or a bend sinister, ser Franklyn Flowers marks his status as a bastard Fossoway by using a brown apple for example. If your only options as a bastard are a bend sinister or reversed colours you're screwed if a person has more than two male bastards lol. A few further notes: As you say the mermaid sigil suggests a Manderly mother, but this is already the case in the mod. Vikary's are already related to the reigns and Crakehalls. As we don't know they were descended from Redtusk and the Reynes and Crakehalls are from the same region there will have been other unions between the two and why write the Vikarys out of earlier start dates. Cassels as Stark descendants is interesting sure, but considering ever time someone meets a Karstark they go "you know Stark and Karstarks share the same blood right?" The fact that over the multiple books that Cassels have appeared no one ever pointed out that they were related just makes it seem very implausible. After all they are longstanding supporters of the Starks and live next to the Wolfswood, taking wolfsheads as a sigil has other plausible explanations - i.e. No one says that Reynes are clearly a cadet house of House Lannister because they also have lions on their sigil. The Lightfoots are quite plausibly related to the Woodfoots but if they are you'd have to wonder why they aren't asking for Bear Island back all the time which suggests they're not or even they have forgotten the connection I have a lot of sympathy on the Galladon of Morne side of things, and in More Bloodlines I made Galladon the progenitor of the Tartsh, but considering Galladon is a folk hero that basically everyone on Tarth claims descent from I don't think it was as simple as him marrying the daughters of the Evenstar (addintionally from my point of view the Evenstar is just a title/nickname, not the house name of the old Tarth kings, Tarth sounds like a first mannish name and the island appears to have been called Tarth even in the age of the First Men, so I personally don't think they are separate houses but that's a different discussion). you say he's incorrect but he really generally isn't about a lot. the question of the karstarks was not sincere -- he was using it as an example. the unnamed knight in question we have 1 sentence (as paxter says). nothing about him. his size. his looks really. just his sigil. and we know a personal sigil in ASOIAF means very little. they can be reversed or altered family sigil or entirely different. Quentyn Ball for example. Euron as well. So 3 Silver Mermaids on purple... Manderly is a white merman (white and silver are different tinctures in ASOIAF) and no mention of tridents. When the Manderlys left the reach they were still of much influence. It's more likely that this un-named Medrick's family were just knights in loyal service to the Manderlys than he is a bastard with complicated background just because he has 3 mer-creatures. Paxter, kuczaja and I have been debating Medrick and he's likely to return, but possibly of his own house with unknown background. Sorry should have been clearer, when I said he was incorrect I meant it mostly in response to his statement "a cadet is actually a younger son who will not inherit" which I would argue is merely a junior branch whereas a cadet house is when the surname or identity undergoes a fundamental change. I definitely agree with you on the personal sigil front, there can be a huge amount of variation and there are no absolute rules about what you do with your sigil (unless it turns out there is a Garter King of Arms we've just never met lol), indeed some characters who are heads of their house such as Euron, Littlefinger and Pearse Caron use an entirely different sigil to the one they could bear. I also wasn't saying he was definitely a bastard, I was just pointing out that a bend sinister or reversed colours would not be the only way to show bastardry, so the colours being unreversed doesn't mean that the character cannot be a bastard, for example. I get where you are coming from on the knight with the three mermaids, especially the lack of tridents, and given the fact that White Harbour has such a maritime focus a mermaid would be a perfectly logical sigil for a house from that region to choose. As a side note given how long ago the Manderlys left the Reach I wonder if their sigil as it is now is the same as it was when they left - the Merling King seems to be a sea deity not a river deity and they lived on the Mander not on the Sunset Sea, plus with the Seal Rock a major geographic feature of White Harbour and the link between seals and mermaids the merman symbol could have become attached to the Manderlys after their flight North. I do still think the fact that the mermaids are three on purple is very interesting, given we know that Woolfields and Manderlys have strong ties the fact that the sigil seems to borrow elements from both seems significant, but as you say there are a range of possible explanations beyond just a bastard son of a Manderly woman and a Woolfield man, such as a younger Woolfield given lands by the Manderlys and a Manderly bride, a household knight from Ramsgate who acquired lands in White Harbour, or just weird coincidence. A little intrigued by white and silver being different tinctures being different tinctures in ASOIAF, I hadn't noticed but you're right, had a quick look on westeros.org and on the Northern heraldry page you've got the Cerwyns listed as " A black battle-axe on silver" and then House Condon as "An eagle's head between crossed tridents, red on white" so they are different tinctures, very weird. I guess it is worth noting that the memaids on the sigil are described as "bloodstained surcoat showed three silvery mermaids upon a violet field" so it might be in reference to their tails or something with the overall tincture of the mermaid still being white, but I take your point, especially as House Woolfield's sigil also uses the white tincture so if it is silver where has it come from.
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Post by lordcorvocrowlover on Apr 19, 2019 9:29:37 GMT
I still think Manderly - Woolfield for him would be better and not a bastard but a new house, as since his coa has borrowed elements from both and using the colors not in reverse while borrowing elements from both would probably mean not bastard. Silver color could just be a mistake, on Theon’s or GRRM’s part or could very well be a clever way of showing this young son of woolfield’s that was rewarded with a Manderly wife had an office relatef to silver, the mint perhaps. Manderly guards also use silver tridents and Marlon wears silver armor.
Him being a cadet would also be nice flavor to show how Westeros works, younger sons seek service oytside and their service may eventually earn them wives, lands. Flints are a great example.
Vikarys; they are that, yes but look at the coa, female and male sides should be changed.
Cassel; Tyrell was an example to show a use of numbers related to the position of the bearer. No one mentions Vikarys and Oldflowers being related to Gardeners and Reynes either but their sigil clearly shows that.
Vance, Arryn and Stark; there are more than two branches of these.
Starks have in Barrowton and WH, making a cadet for these two branches with same CoA would be nice, Cadet is for game purposes.
Arryns have landed branches beside Gulltown aryns as well, again for game purposes giving a cadet with same coa and several barons would be nice flavor. Gulltowners could use gold(gull being gold) if it’a not already in. Making it a golden gull would be even more pun I guess.
The two Vance branches we see are the most powerful branches, another cadet with a barony or two with a single dragon with a different color as a sigil.
Since I have written so much, Dolorous Edd also comws from a branch of the family with their own “keep”a barony, under some other houses county.
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Post by rufff1 on Apr 19, 2019 10:37:53 GMT
I still think Manderly - Woolfield for him would be better and not a bastard but a new house, as since his coa has borrowed elements from both and using the colors not in reverse while borrowing elements from both would probably mean not bastard. Silver color could just be a mistake, on Theon’s or GRRM’s part or could very well be a clever way of showing this young son of woolfield’s that was rewarded with a Manderly wife had an office relatef to silver, the mint perhaps. Manderly guards also use silver tridents and Marlon wears silver armor. Him being a cadet would also be nice flavor to show how Westeros works, younger sons seek service oytside and their service may eventually earn them wives, lands. Flints are a great example. Vikarys; they are that, yes but look at the coa, female and male sides should be changed. Cassel; Tyrell was an example to show a use of numbers related to the position of the bearer. No one mentions Vikarys and Oldflowers being related to Gardeners and Reynes either but their sigil clearly shows that. Vance, Arryn and Stark; there are more than two branches of these. Starks have in Barrowton and WH, making a cadet for these two branches with same CoA would be nice, Cadet is for game purposes. Arryns have landed branches beside Gulltown aryns as well, again for game purposes giving a cadet with same coa and several barons would be nice flavor. Gulltowners could use gold(gull being gold) if it’a not already in. Making it a golden gull would be even more pun I guess. The two Vance branches we see are the most powerful branches, another cadet with a barony or two with a single dragon with a different color as a sigil. Since I have written so much, Dolorous Edd also comws from a branch of the family with their own “keep”a barony, under some other houses county. The mint is an interesting suggestion, and I buy that as a plausible suggestion - also arguably there could be a unique minor title for the Lord of White Harbour "Master of the Mint" perhaps, we know that such a thing exists as Lord Manderly mentions that he has replaced his mint officials and toll collectors as they were hoarding taxes and toll fees for Joffrey not sending it to Robb. I get where you're coming from on the Cassels and it certainly an interesting suggestion, I just feel that given how Karstarks are always metioned as kin to the Starks and GRRM has mentioned that the Starks have branches in Barrowton and White Harbour but hasn't said anything about the Cassels I just think its unlikely. I do agree about the Stark and Arryn branches, these definitely should be added. Maybe make them descended from bastards so that the Karstarks are still higher in the succession? I think Stark of Barrowton and Stark of White Harbour would work as names, and the sigils could be the traditional Stark arms or some variant with a direwolf before a trident or on blue for the White Harbour branch, and a direwolf beneath axes or on gold for the Barrowton branch perhaps? I think the Gulltown Arryns use a golden falcon for their sigil, the only one to have been named is in Fire and Blood and is called Isembard Arryn, the Golden Falcon, which suggests that his sigil is the Arryn sigil in gold. The other Arryn branches shouldn't hold lands though as they are said to be poor but proud for their name and heritage. Not sure about Dolorous Edd's family having a barony - he mentions being raised in a small house little better than that of a peasant.
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Post by lordcorvocrowlover on Apr 19, 2019 11:35:55 GMT
Dolorous Edd says, if I recall, he grew up in some place like Craster’s keep, which is not some small hovel a poor peasant would live in. The place is big enough to house Craster’s wives and many brothers. So apparently They were poor but still petty nobility with a large but poor place to live in.
Karstarks are mentioned because they are a major house with a nonbastard ancestor. Again, we are told all the Reynes and Gardeners are dead when they still have kin living through the bastards. Darklyns are similar as well, all the lordly ones die and we don’t get to learn of the branches until Brienne goes there.
Other Arryns should have baronies as well; being a lord doesn’t make you rich.
Oh and on Galladon; Tarths were always Tarths with evenstar being a title, but check the CoA; Sun on male side and Moon on female. So possibly a union Morne men and a Tarth woman.
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